I think I have read that the UCSB ingrates commandeered the cafeteria and gave away all the food.
I would be arrested and charged. We have decided only certain portions of society should be held accountable. Our law enforcement establishments have let us slip into anarchy.
S.2- it is hard to return comments to your ideological stance- to call the tragedy in Palestine is an abuse of speech you clearly don't understand. To be "on the right side of history" is of no interest to me, but to be on the right side of morality is. I am pro-life, what you are calling "abortion" because "pregnant women are causalities of war" is another abuse of speech. If I think Israel has a right to defend itself, that is not carte blanch support of all of Israel's terrible ideas or political positions. You need to wake up before we can have an honest conversation.
Yes, these ignorant children may take over some day and write the history. Among making messes they should have to clean up, they are inverting the English language. Those who work to destroy use that tactic as a tool to great effect. Apparently you don't understand the word genocide and are easily swayed by its misuse. A school should be where people learn. Children are easily manipulated and without humility, revel in their ignorance.
And don’t those of us old enough to have received a true liberal education lament today’s doctrinal poverty? Call it a genocide of the mind - and ultimately free will.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
It would help if you understood my post, but perhaps history isn’t your strong point. Although perhaps you’re beginning to understand current events. One can hope!
It is unclear Mark which side you are indicting- there is only one possible right answer here and if you attribute tyranny to the wrong side, it is you whose strong point is not history.
It’s not me who decides the “side”. It’s history that has made that decision. And sadly there are those amongst us who still do not understand, nor do they seem to accept, that history does indeed tend to repeat itself. For better or for worse.
As for my strong points? I’ll be happy to stand firm that historical facts and historical data regarding human behavior towards one another is indeed one of my strong points. Both by extensive research and, sadly enough, through personal experience.
Mark, there is something kind about you, even in your snarkier moments. Might I go further and suggest that you are a naturalist? If you are, that would explain the unbridgeable gap between our words. Still, I will tell you as a point of fact, that no, "history" has not made that decision or any other decision, History cannot decide anything. The only free will on planet earth belongs to humans, but if you are a naturalist, you will say that free will belongs to history, not to humans, and you will illustrate, yet again, the theme of my article, which is the Universities inculcate the abuse of speech, much like we see in 1984, and your very words are evidence of the theme.
First, you wouldn’t have a clue what my convictions are. Second, you seem to have an incredibly insecure view of yourself and your knowledge of history if you’re concerned about how I feel about it. And that my friend is on you. As for conservatives aghast of authoritarianism. Your fellow conservatives sure have a strange way of defending that statement walking around wearing red MAGA caps. The usual conversation with conservatives these days is their regurgitating denials minus facts while dismissing facts that contradict their own claims. I’ve had these conversations to the point of nausea due to the never ending refusal to acknowledge the truth. I’ve given ample opportunities for conservatives to defend their convictions with evidence and facts, yet nothing is ever presented to back their claims. Nothing!!. Once this MAGA pandemic passes and the Grand Old Whatever it’s called these days, finally gets rid of their toxic ideologies and decides to join the rest of civilized America, you won’t see me, or most of America, give you any credibility whatsoever.
Well...and timely said! We must not submit to tactics historically used to control people around the world. They are few...we are many. Let us not let them dictate what we say, what we believe and how we live. Liberty and Justice!
Perhaps the current university student protests that the author writes about, aren’t as dire as he opines. Turns out that actively protesting the Israeli/Hamas conflict, is rather far down on the current list of concerns of today’s university students.
It's not so important to me where these actions fall on a list to university students as it is that they are intellectually tolerated by the students at all. Hatred, no matter at what level of intensity, is extremely dangerous to any society...and must be opposed openly by those who know its ultimate consequences.
If you read beyond the incidents and the numbers of brainwashed actors you will see that the much bigger problem is that all students are exposed to the indoctrination. It doesn't matter that a small percentage acts on the manipulation it matters that it is manipulation for all students and the percentage of students and severity of what they are willing to do in response to this conditioning is increasing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
The first “ genocide “ of the 20th century was the attempt by the Ottoman Turks to destroy the Armenian minority. They were very effective in eliminating a religious ( Christian) minority in a Muslim nation. Hitler was famously quoted as saying “who after all speaks todsy of the annihilation of the Armenians?”
Let's not forget the most "successful" genocide in human history: the murder and forced removal of Native Americans by European colonists. The "Whiter" the New World nation, the more effective was the genocide. Every square inch of our own country was taken from a Native Nation. Hard to be more "effective" and "successful" than that!
American Indians did not share the same ownership of property as Europeans. There was a struggle for resources all right and like other tribes previously, the Europeans won. Disease killed 90% of natives, not colonists. Most of the rest became mixed with whites. Stephen, you do not know very much about the tribes.
Thanks to Adolph Hitler, what used to be considered war is now by many called Genocide. The European/ native American conflict commencing in the 17th Century in North America and culminating in the post Civil War Indian Wars in the West, now has become genocide. Eventually 30 million people migrated from Europe and encountered around 5 million Native Americans. There were violent acts on both sides that today could be defined as genocide. Sometimes Indians fought side by side with the Europeans against Indians. Indians engaged in internecine wars with one another, and the losers sometimes banded together with the white man to regain land they lost to other Indians. The Crows are an example of this. Americans before and after the Civil War had a high regard for Indians as warriors. After the war was over in the 1890s and the young US was the clear winner, the government and American society began a protracted ongoing legal and cultural process of acknowledging Indian rights and heritage. Today Indians are still here, as they like to say, and I honor them not as genocidal victims, but as fellow contributors to the American experience.
Thanks to Adolph Hitler, what used to be considered war is now by many called Genocide. The European/ native American conflict commencing in the 17th Century in North America and culminating in the post Civil War Indian Wars in the West, now has become genocide. Eventually 30 million people migrated from Europe and encountered around 5 million Native Americans. There were violent acts on both sides that today could be defined as genocide. Sometimes Indians fought side by side with the Europeans against Indians. Indians engaged in internecine wars with one another, and the losers sometimes banded together with the white man to regain land they lost to other Indians. The Crows are an example of this. Americans before and after the Civil War had a high regard for Indians as warriors. After the war was over in the 1890s and the young US was the clear winner, the government and American society began a protracted ongoing legal and cultural process of acknowledging Indian rights and heritage. Today Indians are still here, as they like to say, and I honor them not as genocidal victims, but as fellow contributors to the American experience.
Thanks to Adolph Hitler, what used to be considered war is now by many called Genocide. The European/ native American conflict commencing in the 17th Century in North America and culminating in the post Civil War Indian Wars in the West, now has become genocide. Eventually 30 million people migrated from Europe and encountered around 5 million Native Americans. There were violent acts on both sides that today could be defined as genocide. Sometimes Indians fought side by side with the Europeans against Indians. Indians engaged in internecine wars with one another, and the losers sometimes banded together with the white man to regain land they lost to other Indians. The Crows are an example of this. Americans before and after the Civil War had a high regard for Indians as warriors. After the war was over in the 1890s and the young US was the clear winner, the government and American society began a protracted ongoing legal and cultural process of acknowledging Indian rights and heritage. Today Indians are still here, as they like to say, and I honor them not as genocidal victims, but as fellow contributors to the American experience.
I appreciate your comments Jarrell, they are not of this age as I describe in the article. The anachronistic politicization of the past allows for ideologues to call any war "genocide" as long as the aggressors are from the right ethnicity and the victims for the same reason. Using genocide to describe war is an abuse of speech. Redefining genocide for political purposes is illegitimate and in bad faith.
JL, excellent example of Alinksy's affinity with his master the Great Divider. Who in their right mind thinks this rule is a just way to treat fellow citizens? We are seeing the soft version of #13 on this thread and some who would actually defend Alinsky and a good person. Still how many words just on this thread do you think we could identify as "abused speech" or in other words "owning the language?" I bet we can find dozens. Although they are fewer, I bet there is a handful of readers and commenters who agree with Alinsky's tactics here.
Safeguard indigenous populations in Spain (Iberia)? Who were the indigenous of Iberia? Protestants had little regard for most of the history in the America's? What are you writing?!
So where are they getting the genocide idea? Right, it’s the Palestinians committing genocide. The a democrats project their evils on others.
These protestors are too ignorant and incapable of doing a simple google search.
These American rioters apparently do not know that on Oct 7 that 35 unarmed American civilians were brutally killed by Palestinians. Women and children killed in their homes, raped in a brutal massacre.
The Palestinians, Hamas are the leaders of Palestine, support and help Hamas in their terrorists attacked and cowardly hiding under civilian areas. Just like these college idiots support the Democrat funded BLM , Antifa style vandalism and violent riots.
“ Donors include some of the biggest names in Democratic circles: Soros, Rockefeller and Pritzker”. Two of the organizers supporting the protests at Columbia University and on other campuses are Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow. Both are supported by the Tides Foundation, which is seeded by Democratic megadonor George Soros and was previously supported by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
But college kids are too ignorant or lazy to even look at Wikipedia. Welcome to an American education.
“Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist group attacked Israel on October 7. “
correct, Soros runs the human organizations, including those that you listed (+++ both here & abroad)…the college kids are merely pawns in the bigger game…thier plan was to create another ‘Summer of Love’ similar to 2020 pre election, but they are failing (people are waking to their schemes)…
none of what is happening to Our Country is organic…we are in the middle of a Color Revolution against US by the “Old Guard” (CCP + WEF + others foreign & domestic)…they are using the same playbook that they have used to install communism in other countries over time:
Steps used to install Communism:
1. Take control of Health Care (make ppl depend on government - thanks Obama)
2. Create Poverty (make ppl dependent upon government)
3. Create Debt (higher taxes -> more poverty)
4. Gun Control (remove guns to create Police State)
5. Take full control of Personal Lives (food, housing, transportation...)
Ahh, you know the KKK folks were dems but the same states and counties are now GOP. You know that - you just like spread that misinterpretation. The south used to be all Dem - now it's all MAGA. I doubt the KKK left their province. And now you're a Biden fan?
i would really like to know what your point is. It sounds to me like you're saying, even though its the Democrats who are the original racists, the Republicans are.
It just seems like you were saying that it is republicans that are racists but the democrats are the real racists- so explain your meaning of that first post please?
Whether you agree or not, the International Court of Justice, in response to South Africa’s petition, joined by other nations, found a plausible case supporting genocide by Israel. So that’s one defensible source for that argument and conclusion.
All war is horrifying, especially since most are banker wars for profits.
How did the US respond after 9/11 terrorists attacks on American civilians?
Yep, the American people supported an attack on civilians to get the “bad” guys.
Did America warn civilians where we will attack? Did America open routes of evacuation? Nope. Thousands of civilians in Afghanistan were killed by America. America devastated the region. So America is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Now Americans are telling Israel how to fight a decades long, centuries long war?
The day after Israel was declared a country five Arab nations attacked Israel.
Palestinians have launched thousands of rockets and mortars at Israel civilian targets since 2001. Palestine has been designated terrorists for thirty years. They have been declared war criminals throughout the years.
Do you think both Israel & Palestine are war criminals? And do you think America & NATO are “innocent”?
Oct 7 Palestinians went into Israel and killed over 1,200 unarmed civilians including women and children in their homes point blank with American supplied rifles. Then retreated to hide behind civilians. Cowards.
America funded the attack, America supplied the rifles used to kill Jews. The weapons left in Afghanistan are being used by Palestine. America gave Iran $6bilion weeks before the mass murder of Israelis.
America negotiated a cease fire without involving Israel then tells Israel we will not supply their munitions if they do not comply with America’s will.
The tunnel system under Gaza could shelter every Palestinian. Do they retreat into the safety of the tunnels, no.
Why did Egypt build a wall keeping out Palestinians?
How many Ukrainians have died in Americas war against Russia?
All soldiers?
We are pushing and continuing that war killing hundreds of thousands of people.
Ukraine and Russia tried to have leave two years ago, but America said no.
America needs to but out. But America is greedy. Not you & me, our government leaders and elites who profit from war. They need war.
If words mattered, IDF responding to a brutal attack and protestors labeling it as genocide is the wrong word. Retrieving hostages from ruthless killers and calling it genocide is also incorrect.
The protestors, et al are infuriated because innocent women and children are killed in the above reactionary attacks from Israel; the breaking of a treaty, the vicious barbarian attack of Hamas and the taking of hostages be-damned!
Furthermore, I would use the word irresponsible and label the United States that for not vehemently combining forces to rescue the American held hostage immediately. The world knows of Hamas' military tactics of pushing innocents between guns aimed at them. The vacillating state dept. is truly the Jr. varsity of the Middle East policy.
This savage aggression happened worlds away from the American campuses, yet the anger towards the Jews here is astonishing. After how many years and years of anti prejudice indoctrination in the school system and this is the result? It's like prejudice is an un-ignited bomb awaiting an activist protestors' torch. The finger must be pointed at the educators that failed "prejudice" class.
Thanks for letting me know about the leftist influence at UCSB. I had not heard of a news story about the University other than UCLA and a few back east. I agree that people who break the law have no standing to make demands.
Glad to know you dont approve of a convicted felon running for president. No one approves of a convicted felon running for president, and as far as half the country knows, there isn't one.
what are you even talking about? The 90million people who support Trump are not cultists and are not delusional. It is actually the ideological Left that is cult-like.
You define exactly what I’m talking about!!. Not surprising a delusional Trumptard would try to defend a delusional cult of Trumptards who cult worship a delusional sociopathic convicted felon. And predictably your math skills are lacking as well, but you’re not alone. All your delusional right wing traitorous Capital Stormtroopers couldn’t count past 10 either.
Project much… your trump derangement syndrome has you frothing at the mouth, lashing out on an otherwise friendly and civilized discussion board. Give it a rest and get out of your basement
Mark, there is evil afoot. This war we are in is not R vs D. It’s liars verse the truth. And those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
We have developed false divides in our culture that pit “conservative” against “liberal” and portray just causes as something “they” do. We determine our convictions based upon a popularity contest so we are liked by the “ cool” kids not wanting to be on the wrong side. Too many people have forgotten it’s not about D vs R. It’s about people and issues that affect communities, not individuals.
Instead of using peaceful means we unfortunately see people “celebrate” mass murdering of children & women on both sides and try to say it’s ok because someone threw the first stone & that goes no where.
When will people grow up, mature? Where are the adults? Where are the morals?
Our current leaders are absent of these. Vote differently.
lol, you must be an independent then. Because if you subscribe to the philosophy of the Grand Old Party of recent and their agenda of cultish political hypocrisy, not to mention their political extremism. Then my friend, you reap what you sow. Perhaps you would care to reexamine your research sources. But I will give you credit for articulating your nonsense.
Steven, thanks for writing a piece that generated so much interest and the value of SBCurrent as a forum of exchange.
While my goal was not to comment on anybody's else expression of their opinion, I have to share the humor I found in someone writing that a billionaire; with productive, supportive children; a loving, beautiful wife; living on two of his multiple golf courses; who created a name that he can market as representing quality; and is capable of independently walking and talking; who would pursue a stressful, $400,000/year job, doesn't do anything that does not benefit himself.
Hello Brent, we just had a lovely dinner with a mutual friend!
To your point: The liberal art of Logic is dead and gone in the modern school. The literati cares not a wit for coherence but for effect. This has become a deeply rooted problem in our society that will be very difficult to eradicate.
The author reveals his myopia and affliction with McCarthyism by bundling the murderous and deeply malevolent Stalin and Goebbels, who were far worse than mere “scoundrels”, with community organizer Saul Alinsky, who for decades including the present has inspired many progressive politicians and others trying to make this country and the world a better place for those not blessed with inheritance and privilege. https://www.vox.com/2014/10/6/6829675/saul-alinsky-explain-obama-hillary-clinton-rodham-organizing
WOW Ira Gottlieb! I agree they are much worse than scoundrels, but Alinsky dedicated Rules for Radicals to Lucifer. It would seem myopia and McCarthyism better describe someone else.
Circular. There’s nothing wrong, much less devilish, about organizing people to pursue their own betterment, even if it means less profit or discretion or freedom to pollute or realization of greedy impulses by and for the powerful. Regrets if you find that satanic.
Circular? I have no doubt that those who think Alinsky was a good guy are sincere, but I will suggest that a good end does not justify illicit means. One's "betterment" is a highly questionable term if we are asking Saul what it means to be "better." I am a little worried Ira that you may share definitions with Alinsky. Still, look at what JL posted about Rule #13 and tell me if you agree with Alinsky or do you recognize that as vicious and dividing?
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Sound like any Republicans you know? Not my favorite tactic, but there are times and circumstances where this makes sense. And this country uses it, and when a person embodies evil, it is appropriate. Do you know the story of Wendy McCaw, owner of the SB News-Press? Or Frank Lorenzo of Continental Airlines? Joe McCarthy? Stalin? Hitler? Republicans have used this tactic against President Obama; Trump did it before he was president. He more than many deserve to be the target. It certainly doesn’t make one satanic.
I think Snopes is making a distinction without a difference- what Alynsky wrote about Lucifer as the original radical and the rest of it is very affirming. And have you read that dreadful book, I have and it is terrible and for sure inspired by satan.
Who was Trump's ghostwriter for 'art of the deal? Oh yeah, Tony Schwartz, the guy that now regrets having anything to do with Trump. He’s donated several hundred thousand dollars from the book’s proceeds to causes he believes the former president would hate
All socialists are not created equal; nor do they all behave alike. Where does Bernie Sanders fit in? And frankly I wouldn’t rely on a right-winger’s definition or label ing of a socialist, because they will tell you everyone from the Clintons to Fabians to Eugene Debs to Obama to FDR to the Green Bay Packers to every union leader on the planet to everyone who believes in any government-funded program is a socialist.
Trump is a fascist. Is he the same as Mussolini or Hitler or Father Coughlin?
All socialists want to make a heaven on earth or make the world "a better place" by the power of centralized government. The democrats are the real fascists. Again, have you read Alinsky's book? He is a communist and luciferian, I can't believe anyone would endorse such a horrible person. Bernie is not too different. But I am not a right winger.
What does it mean to “believe in merit”? I think if it’s fairly applied, it can be a valid measure for compensation and advancement. But I don’t think capitalism is very good at determining it.
Currently, upward mobility in this country is largely a myth. The left sees unfairness and responds. Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t also try to elevate people; why does the right take such a jaundiced and fictionalized view of the left?
And, why does the right try so hard to deny people voting rights, and the ability to organize into a union? That avenue used to be a ticket to the middle class, but has been made more difficult and risky at the behest of Reagan.
Your destain for government employees and unions might color your thought process. Step back you might learn something in your search.... They chose a safe bet and are getting moderate rewards.
Another sweeping and wildly inaccurate statement; it’s nonsense to suggest those who are “secular” — whatever you mean by that— lack morals. It seems that the author of the main article and you fear organization for collective power, to aid people to aid themselves. “The church” certainly has engaged in charity, and some religious officials have supported Alinsky-inspired organizing; there is not a conflict between the two. And your statement that progressives “have little regard for charity” is completely false and baseless. There are countless charities and support organizations funded by progressives, such as Bet Tzedek, Liberty Hill, Los Angeles Alliance for the New Economy, other legal aid organizations like California Rural Legal Assistance and far too many others to count. And then there’s the former president who, when he’s not committing fraud, or stealing classified documents, steals money from charities.
It's not that the secular humanists don't have "morals" it is that their morals are not tethered to the objective standards of good and justice, so they are ever morphing, declining, decaying and descending into malevolence in general. Secular humanists of 100 years ago were better people than secular humanists of today.
The true Church and Alinsky are as diametrically opposed as we can be- the Church rightfully condemns the evil of communism and socialism and the very collective groups that have been responsible for unprecedented murder, oppression and poverty.
I am pretty sure you don't know what the word "charity" means. This is the point of the article, that the abuse of speech has become normalized in our society so much so that one can say the diametric opposite of the truth as truth claims.
We disagree, and I don’t appreciate or respect your arrogance or necessarily distorted and ahistorical perspective. For one thing, you won’t seem to get the distinction between Stalin and Goebbels on the one hand, and Alinsky on the other. Nor do you account for the notion that collectivism can be a mechanism for good or evil, just as capitalism can be and has been. Instead you categorically (and ahistorically) assign evil to one and goodness to the other. Similarly with “secular humanism”: Have you forgotten the vast harms, hatred, abuses, corruption, and massacres committed in the name of religion? The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, pogroms, missionary depredations against native peoples, justifications of slavery and indentured servitude, child abuse? The perpetrators were not secular humanists, and I have barely scratched the surface.
Self-righteous indignation is a poor substitute for erudition.
My degree from UCSB is in history, so if I am ahistorical and my diploma is the cause that you might agree with my indictment of UCSB as an anti-intellectual organization.
In reality what you express is historicism.
I don't have a way to tell you this, but collectivism is an evil even if it appears as if it yields "good results." I never said capitalism was good, although properly understood it can be very good at times. Still, material communism and socialism are evil, full stop. Saul Alinsky, Stalin and Goebbels all have in common that they serve Satan. They are distinct individuals but all belong to the same evil party. I can't fathom what real distinction you want to make.
Your tropes about religion are simply propaganda, but weak and lazy. Communism, socialism, and collectivism has murdered innocents in unprecedented numbers. People are fallen and every group murders and commits sin- All humans are religious- but Christians murder when they go against the Faith, Communists murder when they go with their faith- If we take the high numbers (I believe they are not true) given by the most honest secular humanist historians on the number murdered in 300 years of the Spanish Inquisition and compare it to the numbers of people Stalin murdered over 20 years the ratio of comparative survival is 1 death in Spanish inquisition compared to 9,999 in the Stalinist Rule. Stalin and Alinsky are two peas in a pod.
You truly haven't scratched the surface, you have been led by pathological propaganda to repeat falsehoods, by which you are no doubt convicted.
Arrogance and conclusory propaganda is no substitute for a fact-based argument. You don’t justify your equation between Alinsky and Stalin because you can’t. Nor do you persuade anyone who isn’t already tethered to your bigoted retro point of view by saying the three “serve Satan”. Indeed, you expose the weakness of your argument by defaulting to that trope. I’m sure you’ll want the last word and you’re welcome to it.
Then there is the current president who recklessly stores classified documents all over the place, cuts deals using his political power to get rich, used to hang with KKK friends, has messed up the economy, foreign relations and everything he has touched.
Another Kool-Aid imbiber. I say that because you’re spouting nonsense and fiction. The economy has been vastly improved since Trump lost — or do you not believe he lost? — he promptly rectified his document misplacement, the operative word on KKK association is “used to”, while Trump and his party are racists at this moment, and he is not enriching himself as Trump has, even though he didn’t take his presidential salary.
There are so many protests movements that you would support now as just, but back then you would be ringing the same bell. How dare the activists make us uncomfortable.
Here is the IDF admitting they bombed a Palestinian refugee camp:
Also the idea of outside agitators or organization has been disproven over and over again. Are you that threatened that college students could organize a protest against genocide and the support thereof?
I don't need to to dig. It's already been shown. Why can't you accept students don't like seeing dead children and would choose to try and do something about it?
Because you would whitewash exactly how terrible it was before. Your argument is the same as saying "black people learned skills under slavery". You leave out all the horrorshow of the racism because it suits you.
I am reminded of the quote often attribute to Eleanor Roosevelt (probably not hers) “Well-behaved women rarely make history." Silent disagreement rarely begets change.
Why would anyone be "well-behaved" today? Can you imagine that you use that as an insult, a well-cultivated virtuous human being will not make history, therefore, misbehave so you can make change and history- wow!
How much reality do you have to ignore to think this topic is really about killing children and babies? This tragedy doesn't end because we say such things and is only the rotten fruit mistaken for root cause.
Dear Steven, In your column you write "'Say Genocide' and its adherents are illegitimate. They have no right to force anyone to say anything that is not true. " This raises several questions. Do the student protestors have the right to force it to be said if it is true? Do they actually have the means to "force" anything? Did people like Bill Ackman manage to "force" out the presidents of Harvard and UPenn and pressure others at places like Columbia, UCLA, MIT and even here at UCSB into using overwhelming state power from the barrel of a gun to force the protestors to desist? Who had the power to get the presidents of several universities hauled before congress? And perhaps more to the point, is it actually not true that Israel's bombing of schools, hospitals and entire residential areas, the more than a decade old control of all borders to Gaza and now the tight restriction of even food aid, water and power in the Gaza strip is engineering famine in order to make life unlivable in the Gaza Strip? Are Palestinians in the West Bank not facing increased repression and killings and continuation of the long standing brutal occupation they continue to live under, despite no appreciable Hamas presence, to in fact also make life unlivable for those non-Jews in the land Israel covets in the West Bank? Do these crimes, when looked at in their totality, not meet the UN legal definition of genocide? Is a state for Jews only founded and maintained with terror, massacres, torture, imprisonments and occupation morally tenable? Was it ever possible to carry out the Zionist project without genocide? Jabotinsky didn't seem to think so in his famous essay "The Iron Wall" written in 1923. Those early Zionist terrorists in gangs that were the precurrors to the IDF that were generating the village files and carrying out Plan Dalet, including massacres such as in Deir Yassin and Tantura, didn't seem to think so. Is the Zionist project as it has turned out consistent with Christian moral values? If not, why are we compelled to have both major US parties remain subservient to the interests of Israel, passing unconstitutional "hate" speech laws to silence criticism of Israel, protecting Israel from restraint in the UN, funding Israel to the tune of billions of dollars per year, waging military operations that run into the trillions of dollars for Israel in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Sudan and undermining peace seeking with Iran? How does your above statement change if it is in fact true that Israel is committing genocide with support of US institutions like UCSB as the protestors claim? Is it "anti-Semitic" to quote the Gospels about the people who killed Christ? Speaking of imposing definitions on words, who defines "anti-Semitism" and how does the definition keep expanding? Is it anti-Semitic to be Christian if the ADL's Jonathan Greenblatt says it is? Who is actually being forced with the power that comes from the barrel of a gun, state power? And why do you ignore the moral failing, abuse of language and truth, and corrosion of the moral values of our civilization on the other, much more powerful side of the activism on this issue of what is clearly Israel's war on the non-Jewish indigenous people of Palestine, Christians among them? Thank you for considering.
I've seen several of your comments on this article and another one, and you are all over the place. Like mommy dearest or like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide you insult and you complement with the same measure of nonsense in your subjective one sided narrative.
Any Democrat that says the party has changed has had blinders on. Dems have never been for the people.
The R party has changed and the RINOs have hijacked it.
But again the Voters are to blame. They are ignorant to what’s really going on and they do not hold their elected officials, public servants, accountable.
Just as parents are to blame for the youth who are rioting blindly, ignorantly across the country supporting Hamas.
This is about the issues and the people, liars verse truth.
In order to keep order and decorum, all involved should be expelled from the University and banned from reapplying. Until there are consequences for which there were none here this will continue. And the management of UCSB is very lacking in shutting this sort of extreme disruption off immediately. "What you allow you endorse" This is a public university, not a private fifedom for the will of the owners to do as they wish.
I think I have read that the UCSB ingrates commandeered the cafeteria and gave away all the food.
I would be arrested and charged. We have decided only certain portions of society should be held accountable. Our law enforcement establishments have let us slip into anarchy.
These children need consequences imposed upon them. Expulsion would be just the beginning.
these kids are a menace on our campus, and they make us ALL look bad.
You are abusing speech to claim that the tragic atrocity is a genocide, you have to ignore too much of reality to conclude that.
S.2- it is hard to return comments to your ideological stance- to call the tragedy in Palestine is an abuse of speech you clearly don't understand. To be "on the right side of history" is of no interest to me, but to be on the right side of morality is. I am pro-life, what you are calling "abortion" because "pregnant women are causalities of war" is another abuse of speech. If I think Israel has a right to defend itself, that is not carte blanch support of all of Israel's terrible ideas or political positions. You need to wake up before we can have an honest conversation.
Yes, these ignorant children may take over some day and write the history. Among making messes they should have to clean up, they are inverting the English language. Those who work to destroy use that tactic as a tool to great effect. Apparently you don't understand the word genocide and are easily swayed by its misuse. A school should be where people learn. Children are easily manipulated and without humility, revel in their ignorance.
Oh, and hiding behind a moniker just shows you are a coward.
And don’t those of us old enough to have received a true liberal education lament today’s doctrinal poverty? Call it a genocide of the mind - and ultimately free will.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Then they came for freedom of choice, equal rights, freedom from religious and political prosecution, and not enough spoke out—
Because a tyrannical authoritarian dictator wouldn’t allow it.
And then the world began to deny it would ever happen again.
Mr. Allen,
i'm pretty sure that word "authoritarian dictator" does not mean what you think it means.
It would help if you understood my post, but perhaps history isn’t your strong point. Although perhaps you’re beginning to understand current events. One can hope!
It is unclear Mark which side you are indicting- there is only one possible right answer here and if you attribute tyranny to the wrong side, it is you whose strong point is not history.
It’s not me who decides the “side”. It’s history that has made that decision. And sadly there are those amongst us who still do not understand, nor do they seem to accept, that history does indeed tend to repeat itself. For better or for worse.
As for my strong points? I’ll be happy to stand firm that historical facts and historical data regarding human behavior towards one another is indeed one of my strong points. Both by extensive research and, sadly enough, through personal experience.
Mark, there is something kind about you, even in your snarkier moments. Might I go further and suggest that you are a naturalist? If you are, that would explain the unbridgeable gap between our words. Still, I will tell you as a point of fact, that no, "history" has not made that decision or any other decision, History cannot decide anything. The only free will on planet earth belongs to humans, but if you are a naturalist, you will say that free will belongs to history, not to humans, and you will illustrate, yet again, the theme of my article, which is the Universities inculcate the abuse of speech, much like we see in 1984, and your very words are evidence of the theme.
First, you wouldn’t have a clue what my convictions are. Second, you seem to have an incredibly insecure view of yourself and your knowledge of history if you’re concerned about how I feel about it. And that my friend is on you. As for conservatives aghast of authoritarianism. Your fellow conservatives sure have a strange way of defending that statement walking around wearing red MAGA caps. The usual conversation with conservatives these days is their regurgitating denials minus facts while dismissing facts that contradict their own claims. I’ve had these conversations to the point of nausea due to the never ending refusal to acknowledge the truth. I’ve given ample opportunities for conservatives to defend their convictions with evidence and facts, yet nothing is ever presented to back their claims. Nothing!!. Once this MAGA pandemic passes and the Grand Old Whatever it’s called these days, finally gets rid of their toxic ideologies and decides to join the rest of civilized America, you won’t see me, or most of America, give you any credibility whatsoever.
Mark, this is terrifying!
Well...and timely said! We must not submit to tactics historically used to control people around the world. They are few...we are many. Let us not let them dictate what we say, what we believe and how we live. Liberty and Justice!
Perhaps the current university student protests that the author writes about, aren’t as dire as he opines. Turns out that actively protesting the Israeli/Hamas conflict, is rather far down on the current list of concerns of today’s university students.
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/poll-stu
dents-israel-hamas-protests
It's not so important to me where these actions fall on a list to university students as it is that they are intellectually tolerated by the students at all. Hatred, no matter at what level of intensity, is extremely dangerous to any society...and must be opposed openly by those who know its ultimate consequences.
If you read beyond the incidents and the numbers of brainwashed actors you will see that the much bigger problem is that all students are exposed to the indoctrination. It doesn't matter that a small percentage acts on the manipulation it matters that it is manipulation for all students and the percentage of students and severity of what they are willing to do in response to this conditioning is increasing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
It's beyond me, why would anyone want their kids to attend UCSB or any other university campus these days?
They go in as children and they come out as family hating political activists. Crazy!
The first “ genocide “ of the 20th century was the attempt by the Ottoman Turks to destroy the Armenian minority. They were very effective in eliminating a religious ( Christian) minority in a Muslim nation. Hitler was famously quoted as saying “who after all speaks todsy of the annihilation of the Armenians?”
Let's not forget the most "successful" genocide in human history: the murder and forced removal of Native Americans by European colonists. The "Whiter" the New World nation, the more effective was the genocide. Every square inch of our own country was taken from a Native Nation. Hard to be more "effective" and "successful" than that!
American Indians did not share the same ownership of property as Europeans. There was a struggle for resources all right and like other tribes previously, the Europeans won. Disease killed 90% of natives, not colonists. Most of the rest became mixed with whites. Stephen, you do not know very much about the tribes.
And native tribes were so kind and charitable to each other:/
Thanks to Adolph Hitler, what used to be considered war is now by many called Genocide. The European/ native American conflict commencing in the 17th Century in North America and culminating in the post Civil War Indian Wars in the West, now has become genocide. Eventually 30 million people migrated from Europe and encountered around 5 million Native Americans. There were violent acts on both sides that today could be defined as genocide. Sometimes Indians fought side by side with the Europeans against Indians. Indians engaged in internecine wars with one another, and the losers sometimes banded together with the white man to regain land they lost to other Indians. The Crows are an example of this. Americans before and after the Civil War had a high regard for Indians as warriors. After the war was over in the 1890s and the young US was the clear winner, the government and American society began a protracted ongoing legal and cultural process of acknowledging Indian rights and heritage. Today Indians are still here, as they like to say, and I honor them not as genocidal victims, but as fellow contributors to the American experience.
Thanks to Adolph Hitler, what used to be considered war is now by many called Genocide. The European/ native American conflict commencing in the 17th Century in North America and culminating in the post Civil War Indian Wars in the West, now has become genocide. Eventually 30 million people migrated from Europe and encountered around 5 million Native Americans. There were violent acts on both sides that today could be defined as genocide. Sometimes Indians fought side by side with the Europeans against Indians. Indians engaged in internecine wars with one another, and the losers sometimes banded together with the white man to regain land they lost to other Indians. The Crows are an example of this. Americans before and after the Civil War had a high regard for Indians as warriors. After the war was over in the 1890s and the young US was the clear winner, the government and American society began a protracted ongoing legal and cultural process of acknowledging Indian rights and heritage. Today Indians are still here, as they like to say, and I honor them not as genocidal victims, but as fellow contributors to the American experience.
You cannot rely on the 1619 Project for your historical POV. You're historically illiterate. Thats just not what happened lol.
Thanks to Adolph Hitler, what used to be considered war is now by many called Genocide. The European/ native American conflict commencing in the 17th Century in North America and culminating in the post Civil War Indian Wars in the West, now has become genocide. Eventually 30 million people migrated from Europe and encountered around 5 million Native Americans. There were violent acts on both sides that today could be defined as genocide. Sometimes Indians fought side by side with the Europeans against Indians. Indians engaged in internecine wars with one another, and the losers sometimes banded together with the white man to regain land they lost to other Indians. The Crows are an example of this. Americans before and after the Civil War had a high regard for Indians as warriors. After the war was over in the 1890s and the young US was the clear winner, the government and American society began a protracted ongoing legal and cultural process of acknowledging Indian rights and heritage. Today Indians are still here, as they like to say, and I honor them not as genocidal victims, but as fellow contributors to the American experience.
I appreciate your comments Jarrell, they are not of this age as I describe in the article. The anachronistic politicization of the past allows for ideologues to call any war "genocide" as long as the aggressors are from the right ethnicity and the victims for the same reason. Using genocide to describe war is an abuse of speech. Redefining genocide for political purposes is illegitimate and in bad faith.
JL, excellent example of Alinksy's affinity with his master the Great Divider. Who in their right mind thinks this rule is a just way to treat fellow citizens? We are seeing the soft version of #13 on this thread and some who would actually defend Alinsky and a good person. Still how many words just on this thread do you think we could identify as "abused speech" or in other words "owning the language?" I bet we can find dozens. Although they are fewer, I bet there is a handful of readers and commenters who agree with Alinsky's tactics here.
Livingston
Rule 13 sounds like Trump’s mantra.
Nancy, Rule 13 is a Rule for Radicals, it is exactly what the democrats do, it is seriously your play book. Be fair.
My point exactly!
Google the encomienda system
Safeguard indigenous populations in Spain (Iberia)? Who were the indigenous of Iberia? Protestants had little regard for most of the history in the America's? What are you writing?!
They applied for relief? So what? That was their law. Does your cut and paste include the result?
Actually, it was the Herero and Nama genocide in German colonial Africa that was the first genocide of the 20th century.
President Biden just stated Israel is not committing genocide. “What’s happening is not genocide. We reject that,”
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/20/biden-gaza-not-genocide-israel-00159020#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWhat's%20happening%20is%20not%20genocide,speech%20in%20the%20Rose%20Garden.
So where are they getting the genocide idea? Right, it’s the Palestinians committing genocide. The a democrats project their evils on others.
These protestors are too ignorant and incapable of doing a simple google search.
These American rioters apparently do not know that on Oct 7 that 35 unarmed American civilians were brutally killed by Palestinians. Women and children killed in their homes, raped in a brutal massacre.
The Palestinians, Hamas are the leaders of Palestine, support and help Hamas in their terrorists attacked and cowardly hiding under civilian areas. Just like these college idiots support the Democrat funded BLM , Antifa style vandalism and violent riots.
“ Donors include some of the biggest names in Democratic circles: Soros, Rockefeller and Pritzker”. Two of the organizers supporting the protests at Columbia University and on other campuses are Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow. Both are supported by the Tides Foundation, which is seeded by Democratic megadonor George Soros and was previously supported by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/05/pro-palestinian-protests-columbia-university-funding-donors-00156135#:~:text=The%20donors%20include%20some%20of,Voice%20for%20Peace%20and%20IfNotNow.
U.N. finds 'clear and convincing' information that hostages have been raped in Gaza”. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141789
Wikipedia states, “Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have frequently violated the laws of war by firing rockets from within populated areas.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#:~:text=Hamas%20and%20other%20Palestinian%20armed,are%20illegal%20under%20international%20law.
But college kids are too ignorant or lazy to even look at Wikipedia. Welcome to an American education.
“Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist group attacked Israel on October 7. “
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Palestinian%20support%20for%20Hamas%20in,attacked%20Israel%20on%20October%207.
Hamas terrorist organization launched rockets from a humanitarian area in Deir al-Balah https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/03/25/hamas-launches-rockets-at-major-israeli-cities/#:~:text=The%20IDF%20said%20on%20March,after%20the%20attack%20targeted%20Ashdod%2C
Hamas has been on the terror group list for almost thirty years https://www.voanews.com/amp/explainer-how-hamas-ended-up-on-us-list-of-terrorist-groups/7478227.html
The take away here is the failure of parents to parent their children.
These young adults are vandalizing, in true nature of BLM & Antifa. All Warcraft of the Democrats stemming back from the KKK days.
Honestly parents, raise your children with some morals and teach them to do a simple google search.
correct, Soros runs the human organizations, including those that you listed (+++ both here & abroad)…the college kids are merely pawns in the bigger game…thier plan was to create another ‘Summer of Love’ similar to 2020 pre election, but they are failing (people are waking to their schemes)…
none of what is happening to Our Country is organic…we are in the middle of a Color Revolution against US by the “Old Guard” (CCP + WEF + others foreign & domestic)…they are using the same playbook that they have used to install communism in other countries over time:
Steps used to install Communism:
1. Take control of Health Care (make ppl depend on government - thanks Obama)
2. Create Poverty (make ppl dependent upon government)
3. Create Debt (higher taxes -> more poverty)
4. Gun Control (remove guns to create Police State)
5. Take full control of Personal Lives (food, housing, transportation...)
6. Take full control of Schools / Learning
7. Eliminate Religion
8. Create Class Warfare
9. Control the Media
the Silent War continues…
Good Comment. All the woke-tards on here are blinded to these realities.
Ahh, you know the KKK folks were dems but the same states and counties are now GOP. You know that - you just like spread that misinterpretation. The south used to be all Dem - now it's all MAGA. I doubt the KKK left their province. And now you're a Biden fan?
Nice Try, Thomas John. The real racists are democrats.
I think you're missing my point. But continue your mantra.
i would really like to know what your point is. It sounds to me like you're saying, even though its the Democrats who are the original racists, the Republicans are.
Why would you really like to know?
It just seems like you were saying that it is republicans that are racists but the democrats are the real racists- so explain your meaning of that first post please?
Whether you agree or not, the International Court of Justice, in response to South Africa’s petition, joined by other nations, found a plausible case supporting genocide by Israel. So that’s one defensible source for that argument and conclusion.
All war is horrifying, especially since most are banker wars for profits.
How did the US respond after 9/11 terrorists attacks on American civilians?
Yep, the American people supported an attack on civilians to get the “bad” guys.
Did America warn civilians where we will attack? Did America open routes of evacuation? Nope. Thousands of civilians in Afghanistan were killed by America. America devastated the region. So America is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Now Americans are telling Israel how to fight a decades long, centuries long war?
The day after Israel was declared a country five Arab nations attacked Israel.
Palestinians have launched thousands of rockets and mortars at Israel civilian targets since 2001. Palestine has been designated terrorists for thirty years. They have been declared war criminals throughout the years.
Do you think both Israel & Palestine are war criminals? And do you think America & NATO are “innocent”?
Oct 7 Palestinians went into Israel and killed over 1,200 unarmed civilians including women and children in their homes point blank with American supplied rifles. Then retreated to hide behind civilians. Cowards.
America funded the attack, America supplied the rifles used to kill Jews. The weapons left in Afghanistan are being used by Palestine. America gave Iran $6bilion weeks before the mass murder of Israelis.
America negotiated a cease fire without involving Israel then tells Israel we will not supply their munitions if they do not comply with America’s will.
The tunnel system under Gaza could shelter every Palestinian. Do they retreat into the safety of the tunnels, no.
Why did Egypt build a wall keeping out Palestinians?
How many Ukrainians have died in Americas war against Russia?
All soldiers?
We are pushing and continuing that war killing hundreds of thousands of people.
Ukraine and Russia tried to have leave two years ago, but America said no.
America needs to but out. But America is greedy. Not you & me, our government leaders and elites who profit from war. They need war.
All these questions must be honestly answered Brian!!!
Good luck getting transparency from Santa Barbara or CA or the Fed.
They are not public servants despite the people placing them in office.
No! We know that the "truth is not consensus but the convergence of the mind and reality."
Nice try, are you even aware of the political situation in South Africa for the last 30 years?? rofl
Thank you for writing this piece.
If words mattered, IDF responding to a brutal attack and protestors labeling it as genocide is the wrong word. Retrieving hostages from ruthless killers and calling it genocide is also incorrect.
The protestors, et al are infuriated because innocent women and children are killed in the above reactionary attacks from Israel; the breaking of a treaty, the vicious barbarian attack of Hamas and the taking of hostages be-damned!
Furthermore, I would use the word irresponsible and label the United States that for not vehemently combining forces to rescue the American held hostage immediately. The world knows of Hamas' military tactics of pushing innocents between guns aimed at them. The vacillating state dept. is truly the Jr. varsity of the Middle East policy.
This savage aggression happened worlds away from the American campuses, yet the anger towards the Jews here is astonishing. After how many years and years of anti prejudice indoctrination in the school system and this is the result? It's like prejudice is an un-ignited bomb awaiting an activist protestors' torch. The finger must be pointed at the educators that failed "prejudice" class.
Thanks for letting me know about the leftist influence at UCSB. I had not heard of a news story about the University other than UCLA and a few back east. I agree that people who break the law have no standing to make demands.
Glad to know you don’t approve of a convicted felon running for President.
HAHA, now I know what your above comment points to- your strong point is not history, nor is it clear sighted thinking.
Glad to know you dont approve of a convicted felon running for president. No one approves of a convicted felon running for president, and as far as half the country knows, there isn't one.
More like 70 odd million clueless cultists DO KNOW they cult worship a convicted felon, but are so delusional it doesn't matter to them.
what are you even talking about? The 90million people who support Trump are not cultists and are not delusional. It is actually the ideological Left that is cult-like.
You define exactly what I’m talking about!!. Not surprising a delusional Trumptard would try to defend a delusional cult of Trumptards who cult worship a delusional sociopathic convicted felon. And predictably your math skills are lacking as well, but you’re not alone. All your delusional right wing traitorous Capital Stormtroopers couldn’t count past 10 either.
I don't think I am at all what you are talking about, you tell people here they are delusional but I don't think you know what you are talking about.
Project much… your trump derangement syndrome has you frothing at the mouth, lashing out on an otherwise friendly and civilized discussion board. Give it a rest and get out of your basement
Once again the “victims” of the right underestimate the intelligence of normal people. Ya can’t fix stupid! but thanks for trying.
Mark, there is evil afoot. This war we are in is not R vs D. It’s liars verse the truth. And those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
We have developed false divides in our culture that pit “conservative” against “liberal” and portray just causes as something “they” do. We determine our convictions based upon a popularity contest so we are liked by the “ cool” kids not wanting to be on the wrong side. Too many people have forgotten it’s not about D vs R. It’s about people and issues that affect communities, not individuals.
Instead of using peaceful means we unfortunately see people “celebrate” mass murdering of children & women on both sides and try to say it’s ok because someone threw the first stone & that goes no where.
When will people grow up, mature? Where are the adults? Where are the morals?
Our current leaders are absent of these. Vote differently.
lol, you must be an independent then. Because if you subscribe to the philosophy of the Grand Old Party of recent and their agenda of cultish political hypocrisy, not to mention their political extremism. Then my friend, you reap what you sow. Perhaps you would care to reexamine your research sources. But I will give you credit for articulating your nonsense.
Mark, did you go to UCSB?
And Congratulations!! … you “earned” another red heart “like”. You keep it up and you just may be able to qualify for top of your class.
Steven, thanks for writing a piece that generated so much interest and the value of SBCurrent as a forum of exchange.
While my goal was not to comment on anybody's else expression of their opinion, I have to share the humor I found in someone writing that a billionaire; with productive, supportive children; a loving, beautiful wife; living on two of his multiple golf courses; who created a name that he can market as representing quality; and is capable of independently walking and talking; who would pursue a stressful, $400,000/year job, doesn't do anything that does not benefit himself.
Hello Brent, we just had a lovely dinner with a mutual friend!
To your point: The liberal art of Logic is dead and gone in the modern school. The literati cares not a wit for coherence but for effect. This has become a deeply rooted problem in our society that will be very difficult to eradicate.
The author reveals his myopia and affliction with McCarthyism by bundling the murderous and deeply malevolent Stalin and Goebbels, who were far worse than mere “scoundrels”, with community organizer Saul Alinsky, who for decades including the present has inspired many progressive politicians and others trying to make this country and the world a better place for those not blessed with inheritance and privilege. https://www.vox.com/2014/10/6/6829675/saul-alinsky-explain-obama-hillary-clinton-rodham-organizing
WOW Ira Gottlieb! I agree they are much worse than scoundrels, but Alinsky dedicated Rules for Radicals to Lucifer. It would seem myopia and McCarthyism better describe someone else.
Alinsky didn’t dedicate R for R to Lucifer. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/saul-alinsky-dedicated-rules-for-radicals-to-lucifer/
Ira, I think you are technically right, but the literary allusion serves a very similar purpose because it is an affirming allusion-
He wrote:
"Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very
first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to
know where mythology leaves off and history begins—or which is which),
the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and
did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom—Lucifer.
—SAUL ALINSKY"
I reject Lucifer and his kingdom and Saul Alinsky doesn't - Also, this makes it very clear that he was not being ironic.
Thanks for pointing this out- I will amend my speech to reflect the correction.
Perhaps Alinsky was being ironic. Or is it that you think organizing against capital is satanic?
Alinsky's ideology is Satanic.
Circular. There’s nothing wrong, much less devilish, about organizing people to pursue their own betterment, even if it means less profit or discretion or freedom to pollute or realization of greedy impulses by and for the powerful. Regrets if you find that satanic.
Circular? I have no doubt that those who think Alinsky was a good guy are sincere, but I will suggest that a good end does not justify illicit means. One's "betterment" is a highly questionable term if we are asking Saul what it means to be "better." I am a little worried Ira that you may share definitions with Alinsky. Still, look at what JL posted about Rule #13 and tell me if you agree with Alinsky or do you recognize that as vicious and dividing?
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Sound like any Republicans you know? Not my favorite tactic, but there are times and circumstances where this makes sense. And this country uses it, and when a person embodies evil, it is appropriate. Do you know the story of Wendy McCaw, owner of the SB News-Press? Or Frank Lorenzo of Continental Airlines? Joe McCarthy? Stalin? Hitler? Republicans have used this tactic against President Obama; Trump did it before he was president. He more than many deserve to be the target. It certainly doesn’t make one satanic.
Really? You think he was kidding about dedicating the book to Lucifer?
Turns out he didn’t dedicate his book to Lucifer. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/saul-alinsky-dedicated-rules-for-radicals-to-lucifer/
I think Snopes is making a distinction without a difference- what Alynsky wrote about Lucifer as the original radical and the rest of it is very affirming. And have you read that dreadful book, I have and it is terrible and for sure inspired by satan.
I know right? Crazy! I love how Ira is defending Alinsky. Maybe he was just joking. Has anyone here read rules for radicals?
Who was Trump's ghostwriter for 'art of the deal? Oh yeah, Tony Schwartz, the guy that now regrets having anything to do with Trump. He’s donated several hundred thousand dollars from the book’s proceeds to causes he believes the former president would hate
Mr Gottlieb,
Alinsky is a socialist, just like Stalin. How can you think they are any different?
All socialists are not created equal; nor do they all behave alike. Where does Bernie Sanders fit in? And frankly I wouldn’t rely on a right-winger’s definition or label ing of a socialist, because they will tell you everyone from the Clintons to Fabians to Eugene Debs to Obama to FDR to the Green Bay Packers to every union leader on the planet to everyone who believes in any government-funded program is a socialist.
Trump is a fascist. Is he the same as Mussolini or Hitler or Father Coughlin?
All socialists want to make a heaven on earth or make the world "a better place" by the power of centralized government. The democrats are the real fascists. Again, have you read Alinsky's book? He is a communist and luciferian, I can't believe anyone would endorse such a horrible person. Bernie is not too different. But I am not a right winger.
17% is not chump change. Who’s Lou? And why is the right so disturbed by “class warfare” in which they engage daily?
Ira,
Are you a communist? Do you not believe in merit?
What does it mean to “believe in merit”? I think if it’s fairly applied, it can be a valid measure for compensation and advancement. But I don’t think capitalism is very good at determining it.
Currently, upward mobility in this country is largely a myth. The left sees unfairness and responds. Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t also try to elevate people; why does the right take such a jaundiced and fictionalized view of the left?
And, why does the right try so hard to deny people voting rights, and the ability to organize into a union? That avenue used to be a ticket to the middle class, but has been made more difficult and risky at the behest of Reagan.
Your destain for government employees and unions might color your thought process. Step back you might learn something in your search.... They chose a safe bet and are getting moderate rewards.
Another sweeping and wildly inaccurate statement; it’s nonsense to suggest those who are “secular” — whatever you mean by that— lack morals. It seems that the author of the main article and you fear organization for collective power, to aid people to aid themselves. “The church” certainly has engaged in charity, and some religious officials have supported Alinsky-inspired organizing; there is not a conflict between the two. And your statement that progressives “have little regard for charity” is completely false and baseless. There are countless charities and support organizations funded by progressives, such as Bet Tzedek, Liberty Hill, Los Angeles Alliance for the New Economy, other legal aid organizations like California Rural Legal Assistance and far too many others to count. And then there’s the former president who, when he’s not committing fraud, or stealing classified documents, steals money from charities.
It's not that the secular humanists don't have "morals" it is that their morals are not tethered to the objective standards of good and justice, so they are ever morphing, declining, decaying and descending into malevolence in general. Secular humanists of 100 years ago were better people than secular humanists of today.
The true Church and Alinsky are as diametrically opposed as we can be- the Church rightfully condemns the evil of communism and socialism and the very collective groups that have been responsible for unprecedented murder, oppression and poverty.
I am pretty sure you don't know what the word "charity" means. This is the point of the article, that the abuse of speech has become normalized in our society so much so that one can say the diametric opposite of the truth as truth claims.
We disagree, and I don’t appreciate or respect your arrogance or necessarily distorted and ahistorical perspective. For one thing, you won’t seem to get the distinction between Stalin and Goebbels on the one hand, and Alinsky on the other. Nor do you account for the notion that collectivism can be a mechanism for good or evil, just as capitalism can be and has been. Instead you categorically (and ahistorically) assign evil to one and goodness to the other. Similarly with “secular humanism”: Have you forgotten the vast harms, hatred, abuses, corruption, and massacres committed in the name of religion? The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, pogroms, missionary depredations against native peoples, justifications of slavery and indentured servitude, child abuse? The perpetrators were not secular humanists, and I have barely scratched the surface.
Dear Ira,
Self-righteous indignation is a poor substitute for erudition.
My degree from UCSB is in history, so if I am ahistorical and my diploma is the cause that you might agree with my indictment of UCSB as an anti-intellectual organization.
In reality what you express is historicism.
I don't have a way to tell you this, but collectivism is an evil even if it appears as if it yields "good results." I never said capitalism was good, although properly understood it can be very good at times. Still, material communism and socialism are evil, full stop. Saul Alinsky, Stalin and Goebbels all have in common that they serve Satan. They are distinct individuals but all belong to the same evil party. I can't fathom what real distinction you want to make.
Your tropes about religion are simply propaganda, but weak and lazy. Communism, socialism, and collectivism has murdered innocents in unprecedented numbers. People are fallen and every group murders and commits sin- All humans are religious- but Christians murder when they go against the Faith, Communists murder when they go with their faith- If we take the high numbers (I believe they are not true) given by the most honest secular humanist historians on the number murdered in 300 years of the Spanish Inquisition and compare it to the numbers of people Stalin murdered over 20 years the ratio of comparative survival is 1 death in Spanish inquisition compared to 9,999 in the Stalinist Rule. Stalin and Alinsky are two peas in a pod.
You truly haven't scratched the surface, you have been led by pathological propaganda to repeat falsehoods, by which you are no doubt convicted.
Arrogance and conclusory propaganda is no substitute for a fact-based argument. You don’t justify your equation between Alinsky and Stalin because you can’t. Nor do you persuade anyone who isn’t already tethered to your bigoted retro point of view by saying the three “serve Satan”. Indeed, you expose the weakness of your argument by defaulting to that trope. I’m sure you’ll want the last word and you’re welcome to it.
Everyone? And spiritual is very very different than 'religion'.
Then there is the current president who recklessly stores classified documents all over the place, cuts deals using his political power to get rich, used to hang with KKK friends, has messed up the economy, foreign relations and everything he has touched.
Jarrell, why does the mainstream media tell us just the opposite? And then why do they complain about the fact that most American's don't trust them.
Another Kool-Aid imbiber. I say that because you’re spouting nonsense and fiction. The economy has been vastly improved since Trump lost — or do you not believe he lost? — he promptly rectified his document misplacement, the operative word on KKK association is “used to”, while Trump and his party are racists at this moment, and he is not enriching himself as Trump has, even though he didn’t take his presidential salary.
See you at the polls.
Ira, it truly sounds like you get your points from MSNBC and have not bothered to compare them to reality. Do you know what the word racist means?
https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html
1989 Tiananmen Square protest
Apartheid protests
Kent State
There are so many protests movements that you would support now as just, but back then you would be ringing the same bell. How dare the activists make us uncomfortable.
Here is the IDF admitting they bombed a Palestinian refugee camp:
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4285712-israel-airstrike-gaza-refugee-camp/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite
Seems like genocide to me.
Also the idea of outside agitators or organization has been disproven over and over again. Are you that threatened that college students could organize a protest against genocide and the support thereof?
You're right. Purple t shirts are a sign that the agitators are Saul Alinsky George Soros funded.
I don't need to to dig. It's already been shown. Why can't you accept students don't like seeing dead children and would choose to try and do something about it?
Why not protest the million dead babies aborted per year in the U S then?
Justin, your cluelessness would be funny if it weren't real. yes college kids love seeing dead babies, they will protest for it and defend it.
Are you seriously saying with South Africa would be better under apartheid?
Because you would whitewash exactly how terrible it was before. Your argument is the same as saying "black people learned skills under slavery". You leave out all the horrorshow of the racism because it suits you.
Again, JL deflects.
I am reminded of the quote often attribute to Eleanor Roosevelt (probably not hers) “Well-behaved women rarely make history." Silent disagreement rarely begets change.
Why would anyone be "well-behaved" today? Can you imagine that you use that as an insult, a well-cultivated virtuous human being will not make history, therefore, misbehave so you can make change and history- wow!
I don't think it is change at any cost. I think it is please stop killing children and babies.
How much reality do you have to ignore to think this topic is really about killing children and babies? This tragedy doesn't end because we say such things and is only the rotten fruit mistaken for root cause.
Dear Steven, In your column you write "'Say Genocide' and its adherents are illegitimate. They have no right to force anyone to say anything that is not true. " This raises several questions. Do the student protestors have the right to force it to be said if it is true? Do they actually have the means to "force" anything? Did people like Bill Ackman manage to "force" out the presidents of Harvard and UPenn and pressure others at places like Columbia, UCLA, MIT and even here at UCSB into using overwhelming state power from the barrel of a gun to force the protestors to desist? Who had the power to get the presidents of several universities hauled before congress? And perhaps more to the point, is it actually not true that Israel's bombing of schools, hospitals and entire residential areas, the more than a decade old control of all borders to Gaza and now the tight restriction of even food aid, water and power in the Gaza strip is engineering famine in order to make life unlivable in the Gaza Strip? Are Palestinians in the West Bank not facing increased repression and killings and continuation of the long standing brutal occupation they continue to live under, despite no appreciable Hamas presence, to in fact also make life unlivable for those non-Jews in the land Israel covets in the West Bank? Do these crimes, when looked at in their totality, not meet the UN legal definition of genocide? Is a state for Jews only founded and maintained with terror, massacres, torture, imprisonments and occupation morally tenable? Was it ever possible to carry out the Zionist project without genocide? Jabotinsky didn't seem to think so in his famous essay "The Iron Wall" written in 1923. Those early Zionist terrorists in gangs that were the precurrors to the IDF that were generating the village files and carrying out Plan Dalet, including massacres such as in Deir Yassin and Tantura, didn't seem to think so. Is the Zionist project as it has turned out consistent with Christian moral values? If not, why are we compelled to have both major US parties remain subservient to the interests of Israel, passing unconstitutional "hate" speech laws to silence criticism of Israel, protecting Israel from restraint in the UN, funding Israel to the tune of billions of dollars per year, waging military operations that run into the trillions of dollars for Israel in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Sudan and undermining peace seeking with Iran? How does your above statement change if it is in fact true that Israel is committing genocide with support of US institutions like UCSB as the protestors claim? Is it "anti-Semitic" to quote the Gospels about the people who killed Christ? Speaking of imposing definitions on words, who defines "anti-Semitism" and how does the definition keep expanding? Is it anti-Semitic to be Christian if the ADL's Jonathan Greenblatt says it is? Who is actually being forced with the power that comes from the barrel of a gun, state power? And why do you ignore the moral failing, abuse of language and truth, and corrosion of the moral values of our civilization on the other, much more powerful side of the activism on this issue of what is clearly Israel's war on the non-Jewish indigenous people of Palestine, Christians among them? Thank you for considering.
I've seen several of your comments on this article and another one, and you are all over the place. Like mommy dearest or like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide you insult and you complement with the same measure of nonsense in your subjective one sided narrative.
This is an entire word-salad buffet. How do expect anyone to follow your muddled thinking? And besides that, you tell a one-sided story.
Thomas John:
It is liars verse the truth.
Truth is Dems were never a “party of the people”
RINOs have hijacked the Conservative Party.
It is not R v D.
Any Democrat that says the party has changed has had blinders on. Dems have never been for the people.
The R party has changed and the RINOs have hijacked it.
But again the Voters are to blame. They are ignorant to what’s really going on and they do not hold their elected officials, public servants, accountable.
Just as parents are to blame for the youth who are rioting blindly, ignorantly across the country supporting Hamas.
This is about the issues and the people, liars verse truth.
In order to keep order and decorum, all involved should be expelled from the University and banned from reapplying. Until there are consequences for which there were none here this will continue. And the management of UCSB is very lacking in shutting this sort of extreme disruption off immediately. "What you allow you endorse" This is a public university, not a private fifedom for the will of the owners to do as they wish.
And what do you think it means? Then what do you think I think it means?