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Polly Frost's avatar

Pat Fish just said something here that I have always completely agreed with “How you spend your money is the one thing that really has an impact.” I bought food supplies from small farmers, sustainable fisheries. I bought things made in America. But in the last year I've seen how the government is working to rob us of that power - with inflation, with increased surveillance on what we purchase, with their goal of centralizing so they can control how we spend our money. It's our tax money that goes into organizations like FEMA and here they are, spending that money on illegals rather than NC. They believe they own us entirely. I've been disgusted beyond belief in the last week at how they've threatened civilians who are actually saving lives in NC. These people bought mules and helicopters with their own money partly so that they would have the power to do what's right in a situation like this. And the government is saying they don't have that right. This is not going to go well in NC. I want to think our dollars save us from having to fight our government. But it's not our government right now. It's not even the corrupt government of 2020 stealing that election. They know they can't steal this election because it'd be too obvious, so they're doing what they can now to steal our money and take that power from us. Only Trump can save us.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

I always love your comments Polly but I have to contend a little to point out what I think is the most important aspect of any citizen. Although I agree with you and Pat that it is very important that we carefully discern where to spend our money, the most impactful aspect of any citizen is his/her character, this reverberates throughout a society more than anything, even if it is unnoticed by most of us today. We need to recover an authentic education and train up our children in what is true and what is right. We need to form hearts and minds and the rest will follow no matter how much money or propaganda is put out there.

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Polly Frost's avatar

Stephen, first - terrific column, hope you will write many more. I think we're seeing truly great character in the American citizens who are risking their lives - and jail - to help save the disaster victims in NC. There is no better example of what you're saying right now than these people.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Thank you Polly, and so true, what beautiful souls! What we ought not to miss is that the Universities and public schools have been making great intentional efforts to damage our families and the character of our children and this becomes the source of our societal decay. I do believe many are waking up to reality. Thanks for being out there.

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Polly Frost's avatar

Absolutely true. Vote for Christy Lozano for school board! Send a donation to her campaign https://www.christylozano.com/ ! I did and I don't have children, but our schools aren't just destroying families with children, they’re destroying our communities with toxic education. Did anyone else see the dumbest states in America? CA is ranked #3. #3! Quite an achievement, Dems. And it shows in who gets voted in repeatedly in our government.

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TheotokosAppreciator's avatar

You care so much for children and families yet you support sexual immorality, porn especially. This is hardly a coherent position.

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Paul Aijian MD's avatar

What is obvious is the gaslighting, where the people committed to staying in power by any means suggest that those who insist that elections were stolen are delusional and should be laughed at, scorned, censured or even locked up. Witness how they have used the “ justice “ system to suppress and incarcerate anyone willing to say the 2020 election was stolen. This is the essence of the whole J6 travesty. Steve Bannon is now in jail. Many Trump defense lawyers have lost their law licenses. Rudy Guliani is being destroyed, as they have tried to do to Sidney Powell. Peter Navarro recently got out of jail. The weaponization of the legal system, combined with the wholesale propaganda war from the MSM and most of the education establishment, would seem to be invincible. Our being able to even voice these opinions on Substack, Telegram, or X is viewed as a danger to “ democracy”. This means, to them, that our freedom of speech is a danger to their oncoming tsunami of progressive satanic Marxist hegemony. John Kerry and his friends view the US Constitution as an obstacle to their new world order, which they will run. Remember what Trump said as he put pressure on his bleeding ear-“ fight, fight, fight” and ask God to save us from His enemy who temporarily seems to be winning.

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Monica Bond's avatar

A very well laid out and important article, Stephen. It's good to see that there are people dedicating their time on the local level here in Santa Barbara to try and keep our elections aboveboard. It seems so common sense (not to mention it is the law) that only citizens can legally vote in any election and then read how certain states are manipulating the laws to allow non citizens the right to vote, it is insane.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Thank you Monica! I am so impressed with Michael, Rosalie, and Lisa. We are very lucky to have such good souls. However, you are so right, it seems so commonsensical to have integrity, but when we look to the left, they are looking for every scheme possible because their highest aim is to win and for them the end justifies the means. That cannot be the case for the rest of us. We must not meet their dishonesty with dishonestly of our own. But as you say "it is insane!!!"

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Eric Gordon's avatar

Like Sean Connery (the cop) says in the 1987 movie “The Untouchables”:

“Everyone knows where the booze is; the problem isn’t finding it. The question is who is willing to cross Capone”

So the question is not finding out what the problem is with our electoral process and why no one trusts the system anymore. We all know what the problem is. The question is "Who is willing to cross the Democrat party and go after the source of their power?"

Unaccountable mail-in voting sets up a plausible deniability factor that can not be questioned when the mainstream media, corporations and the party in charge of the bureaucratic state tell us who the winner of an election is.

Eliminate mail in voting. (That’s a period at the end of that sentence)

Stop playing their game. The question of whether there was any fraud in an election is irrelevant compared to whether there is widespread confidence in the system.

Just remember they have “elections” in Russia, North Korea, Brazil, Venezuela etc. too. And ALL of those countries also claim that their elections were "the most secure election that’s ever been run!" 🙄

Election integrity is a confidence game.

It requires that all who participate are confident that whatever the outcome, the game was fairly officiated. And having the side that is in power tell us all that it was the "fairest best most accurate election in history" does not solve the problem.

These people are delusional and trying to brainwash the rest of the population into thinking "its just me"

If any side questions the fairness of the game, then confidence is undermined and the game is no longer fair.

If there are "fears of voter fraud" then you are doing something wrong. Both sides must accept the rules of any game to be fair. If one side feels the rules favor the other side...then the outcome of the game is in question...always.

Get rid of mail-in voting. You should have to show up to vote. Allowing mail-in voting and voting without ID is just one side making the other side not trust the system.

No trust=No Confidence.

No confidence= no integrity

No integrity = election is irrelevant

Election irrelevance = NO Democracy

https://youtu.be/VYsw_VGSDIY?si=Jvz2uHgLH3duyasO

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LT's avatar
Oct 3Edited

Yes, voter fraud, election tampering and voter intimidation has been ongoing for a long time and almost always involves the Democratic Party. The most famous of course, is the 1948 Texas Senate race which was barely won by LBJ. Come to find out many of his votes came from the graveyard! When a recount was requested by the Republican opposition, the story goes, the courthouse where the ballots were kept, mysteriously burned down!

Whether it’s burning down courthouses, or Black Panthers threatening to beat voters or trying to imprison your opponent, it always seems to involve the Dems…surprise!

As far as Dems controlling the airwaves is concerned, just today there is a story saying George Soros is in the process of buying 160 Radio stations! The House is now investigating how this purchase by Soros was streamlined and fast tracked by the Biden FCC….something that has been unprecedented in the past. Yes, Dems working on silencing conservative AM radio, Hannity, Levin etc. Then of course you have lefty, tax funded outlets such as PBS and NPR spreading their lies, misinformation and propaganda.

Folks, it should be more than obvious that the left gets down and dirty and will win at any and all costs. Republicans need to take them on accordingly.

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Earl Brown's avatar

The Republicans need to get 'down and dirty." The "High Road" ain't making it,

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J. Livingston's avatar

We need to have Republicans backs when they do draw the line. Instead we still whine too often about blunt speech and harsh rhetoric.

Time for a Red Line that no Democrat dares to cross. How does that statement registers your own gut?

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Earl Brown's avatar

Kinda not sure what this means . . . "Time for a red line . ." If you mean getting savvy street people to run the GOP voting I'm all for it, _especially_ if it involves paying people to vote. We just gotta find (barely) legal 'remuneration' compensation.

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J. Livingston's avatar

Not what I meant. Do we still retreat, stammer, or go on the defensive still when Democrats try to own the language.

Do we yet call them out, to their faces and mean it? Do we draw the line in the sand and mean it with every part of our soul.

Or do we still engage in too much mutual and useless name-calling. Eg: you are a racist…..you are a communist….

When do we engage instead in a mass GOP …….hakka…..tongues out and spitting fire. When do we scare the crap out of Democrats and mean it. Just like they are continually doing to us.

When do we stop hiding behind Trump and roar on our own.

Noli me tangere!

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Earl Brown's avatar

Is the 'we' you refer to individuals like you and me? I send my Commie-Dem friends videos and stuff I run across on sites like www.gab.com - not that I'm expecting it to do much good.

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Bill Clausen's avatar

The High Road worked for Reagan.

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Gary Smythe's avatar

The members of the church of the Progressive Left worship the god of the self serving “Me, Myself, and I. Integrity and honesty are not part of their doctrine.

The only cure to the disease is national Voter ID, which will never happen in split house and senate. Now more than ever this is necessary with the invasion of millions of undocumented illegals.

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Gary Smythe's avatar

Whatever system you use it should have verified USA citizenship status attached to it. Any illegal vote erodes my rights as an American citizen.

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B Camp's avatar

Amen!

Those who break our laws to enter the country as criminals are not citizens.

They chose to break the law.

What other laws should we ignore?

Why are we paying taxes when the government uses our public money to support illegal activity? We are accomplices to a criminal syndicate providing them the means to keep breaking the law.

We are seeing our resources being depleted by those who are not citizens and those who did not pay into the system.

Meanwhile homeless citizens are left to rot on the streets.

Why do Democrats send Billions to foreign countries. Spend $150 Billion/year on illegals, criminals while they allow Citizens to rot on the streets. The US spends about $14 Billion in 2023 on low income people.

The Democratic Presidents 2025 budgeted only $10 billion to help homeless in the US.

Seriously, they are the Party of foreigners, not the Party of US CItizens.

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Polly Frost's avatar

You're right, B, Look at how they're treating NC.

https://x.com/GraduatedBen/status/1841858630376681872

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J. Livingston's avatar

Population-based districts are the Democrats back door method to give illegals a full vote, without them actually voting. Thst has already happened in Cailifornia.

What do Monique Limon and Gregg Hart have to about this brazen Democrat favoring voting scheme?

When will the GOP swoop into these low voter registration districts snd make them our own. Democrat organized GOTV armies were only too happy to scoop them up. Take them back.

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Justin's avatar

Not sure if you are responding to my post, but I would like you to think out what system you'd like to see in place. What is the basis for it? A birth certificate? Who has the authority to say that you are citizen? Is that an easy thing to get or do you have to wait in line and deal with a bureaucracy? When my twins were born it cost $80 to go get their birth certificates. I have the money, but the principal of it was highly offensive. I had to pay $80 to have proof of my children's identity. What if $80 was the difference between buying formula for your kids or getting their birth certificates? Don't you think that's not okay?

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Michael Self's avatar

When I registered to vote in the 60’s I had to present my birth certificate.

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J. Livingston's avatar

It is easy to get proof of citizenship. Your threshold and willingness to accept fraud is quite low, Justin. Any reasons for that?

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DLDawson's avatar

one citizen / one vote can only be enforced if we use some form of ID. Nearly every country does… https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/countries-that-require-an-id-to-vote/

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Justin's avatar

How about a national ID instead of SSNs for ID? How about it is provided for free to every person, regardless of status? Just like donor status, your voting right would be tied to it. My understanding is that Republicans have been against a national ID, but I may be wrong about that.

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B Camp's avatar

Interesting. So instead of a birth certificate you are proposing a national id.

What’s the difference? Do you think a national id would be free? What if birth certificates were free?

National ID is a gateway to cheating, for an inept, incompetent, purposeful government to issue ids to illegals, criminals who broke our immigration laws.

We do not need a national id, we citizens already have birth certificates and SSNs. We have already been bagged and tagged by the government.

Currently when an illegal alien, a criminal, is issued a drivers license which is a privilege that is being extended to criminals, they are automatically registered to vote.

Then those criminals are automatically enrolled in welfare, despite never ever paying into the system created to help American citizens.

At birth it is known the person originated here in the US.

To issue national ids now is a huge opening for fraud, just like the automatic registering to vote and welfare.

Legal immigration is proper. Those who break our laws are criminals.

Do you support requiring presentation of ID to buy alcohol, to fly, to buy cold medicine? Is that inequitable to require id to go get drunk?

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Monica Bond's avatar

Justin, the proponents of a national I.D. card makes it sound very benign and very easy to use. They are supposedly fraud resistant and counterfeit resistant. But unfortunately the government is prone, through their lust for power, to use "great ideas" to wield their powers more and more with the common citizen. There are a number of ways that people without birthday certificates to prove their citizenship can obtain papers of proof. It may require some work to do so but the alternative of having to have a national I.D. card would be worth it.

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Justin's avatar

I don't think it would be benign or very easy to use. I think it would definitely be prone to counterfeit and fraud, much like the dollar bill is. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Voter suppression goes both ways and the ways that you complain about fraud, the other side complains about expulsion and suppression. Should you have to wait in line for 4 hours to vote if you live in a poor community? We need a comprehensive solution that answers all problems with the system, not just say we need voter ID and leave it at that.

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Monica Bond's avatar

According to the statistics I have found, over 98% of people of all colors are born in hospitals in the U.S. showing that the vast majority of people have easy access to a birth certificate. You are making things more difficult than they really are to show legit citizenship. What is sad to be is that there seems to be such a gulf between "them and us".

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Justin's avatar

My twins were born at Cottage. Several days later I had to go over to the county building near the jail, find the appropriate office, and pay $80 to get the two birth certificates. Again, if you want voter ID laws, I have no issue with that so long as you are willing to make it painless to get that ID and vote. Otherwise you are likely to disenfranchise the poor.

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J. Livingston's avatar

The cost of maintaining county employees in our local recording offices is high. Is this a surprise to you? The power of local employee unions strikes again.

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Monica Bond's avatar

I just checked for a minute on the internet about fees for birthday certificates and they showed one agency in Sacramento that did not charge fees for homeless people who needed to get a birth certificate. If one were to keep looking they may find other ways to get them with the $32.00 price tag that Santa Barbara charges.

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J. Livingston's avatar

Why needlessly replicate any current government service?

Or are you proposing we eliminate the massive bureaucratic document recoding systems we already have in place, with one single registry or just layering more bureaucracy on top of what we already have?

Streamlining this necessary service is in order. I can go along with that. But not expanding the power and reach of Big Government. How many union members are now employed in county recording offices across America today or just in Santa Barbara?

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Pablosdog's avatar

A digital ID can and will be used as a means to control you 100%. Especially if tied to your digital $$.

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J. Livingston's avatar

If you are a fan of Big Brother tracking your every move after what you have seen the federal deep state pull off in the last few years, I can see why you approve of more state controls. The government is not our friend, Justin. We demand equal transparencies and to date Big Goverment refuses to honor that basic requirement.

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Pablosdog's avatar

Whirld Wide Deep Power Structure. No longer hidden.

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J. Livingston's avatar

No reason to play on their terms.

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DLDawson's avatar

Good article Stephen. Some of us remember the hurry up with the Hillary Clinton email case prior to the 2016 election, in keeping with Department of Justice protocols & history, to settle the case outside of the 60-day period that had been historically honored prior to elections.

For 60 days prior to an election, the DOJ is supposed to do absolutely nothing that would taint or interfere with an election. They are now disobeying their own rules — total election interference. It’s just another scam, just like all the others, including Jack case document case, which was totally dismissed.

Our Government is corrupt to the core & will do anything to keep Trump for retaking the reins of power.

Fight 4 Trump!

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Aimee Smith's avatar

Steven, you are absolutely correct that the morality of the left includes the belief that the ends justify the means and that that makes it easy for members of the left to be lured into corrupt and unprincipled behavior such as election fraud, but also, I would add, cancel culture, mob harassment, lawfare, theft, ultimately even violent revolution and totalitaianism. You are also correct that the left has managed to capture and use viewpoint discriminatory practices to create a hostile environment for conservatives and religious in universities and colleges. For example, I am still haunted by the suicide of cancelled UNC Wilmington Prof. Mike Adams who tried to fight discrimination against Christians on his campus. How can we trust people with these values to properly execute elections? The thing you fail to notice, however, is that the right, including the Trump camp, has a similar moral corruption problem. Who on the right is concerned that Donald Trump put the interests of Israel over those of the US to assassinate Iranian official Qasem Soleimani? Assassinations are illegal under international law and also immoral in Catholic teaching. Who on the right is concerned that Trump scrapped the Iran nuclear deal and ended US participation in the INF nuclear treaty? Who on the right is concerned that the Israel First neocons have gotten the US to invade Iraq, Libya, Syria and are doing all they can to get the US to take out Iran? Who on the right is concerned about Trump and others calling for repression of free speech on college campuses to protect the delicate feelings of pro-Genocide Zionists and Jewish supremacists? So many on the right railed against cancel culture and deplatfoming only to then champion the US government overriding the 1st amendment to the constitution to dictate limits on speech on college campuses? Perhaps less on the right would claim that the ends justify the means, but if they out of ignorance or self-interest or cowardice undercut important moral principles for short term perceived political or material interests, then they are in no position to lead any kind of effort to rebuild the moral foundation of our society. That is why I have given up on the left and the right and think the only hope is if we in the US return to the more solid moral teaching that was the precedent of our founding institutions, Catholic teaching. Currently Catholics have no political home in the US, but the even more disastrous times that our corrupt leaders on the left and right seem determined to push us in to will make the failures of our mainstream political currents too obvious to ignore. People will be looking for something sane, something reasoned, something that allows us to overcome coercive means, something that can protect and improve civilization and the best example from the past for the European rooted systems in place in this country and across The West is Catholic morality. For those who are already faithful Catholics, I challenge you to look closely at what we are commanded by God to do and see if you are not being propagandized into facilitating evil because you are caught up in examining the corruption of only the other "side" of the political divide.

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Howard Walther's avatar

I read this excellent article by Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg titled “Election Integrity”

and I quote from same “It should come as no surprise that the more “educated" an

American citizen is, the more left leaning he will likely be. …..Some on the left are

honest, but they are the exception, not the rule. Voter Integrity is an issue that concerns

all Americans.”

It is not just “Voter Integrity” but Integrity of our Local and National Government at Risk

that always goes to the “Integrity of each and every Person.”

Steven and I sat down for a long talk recently. I chose Mr. Rummelsburg because he is

an educator and more importantly “A Mentor” of young people at school. I was

fortunate to have “Mentor Teachers” in High School who were Vietnam Veterans.

At the core of our discussion was “Integrity” and I showed Mr. Rummelsburg some

documents that unfortunately “Shocked Him To the Core” that shows “Lost Integrity”

of those we place “Trust In.” I will leave it at that. There is another Vietnam Veteran

that goes to the heart of this “Lost Integrity” in our Country. He says it better than

anyone I have heard and so I quote former FBI Director Robert Mueller III from the weblink>

https://tinyurl.com/yrc3hsu3

“I was intrigued upon learning that I would meet with you at a place called “Jungle Island.”

As FBI Director, I have been fortunate to speak at many interesting venues. But never before

have I been surrounded by alligators, leopards, and other predators—except perhaps when

I am testifying before Congress.”

“Of course, predators lurk not only here on Jungle Island or in the broader animal kingdom.

We also find them among our fellow human beings. Some people will always look to make a

dishonest dollar by preying on another person’s trust or by cheating the system.

And their crimes affect all of us.”

“Conclusion -Today, we have discussed criminals who prey on seniors to steal from Medicare, criminals who take advantage of homeowners facing foreclosure, and criminals who bilk investors

out of their life savings.”

“This betrayal of trust poses a great challenge, because our free-market economy and, indeed, our whole way of life, are built on trust—trust in the markets and trust in our fellow citizens.”

“Financial fraud undermines that trust, with severe consequences. Consequences such as

wasted taxpayer dollars, higher insurance premiums, and increased business costs—

to say nothing of the harm to the victims themselves.”

“When today’s financial criminals commit their own versions of the “Big Con,” we all lose.”

“Thank you for having me here, and God bless.”

Are there financial predators here in SB: widesprread Medicare Fraud and Financial Fraud??

Sad to say YES ................ "and we all lose."

Howard Walther, member of a Military Family

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Howard, thanks for the good words! In my first email submitting this article I mentioned at the bottom that I wanted to give a special thanks to you for your contributions, as you see clearly above in the article. Let this comment serve as the gratitude I owe you for our conversations on voter fraud, they were very informative. Thank you!

P.S. Not to mention everything else you taught me that did indeed shock me to my core!!!

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Howard Walther's avatar

Well that Fraud just does not STOP at VOTER FRAUD it

spreads like a Cancer of Corruption effecting everything.

Listen to this former CIA Overseas Operator>>he is

moving out of the US because of this Corruption.

https://tinyurl.com/4kf2kj42

Listen at 4:45, the CIA former agent states we are already in WWIII

It is a War of "Proxy Nations" and the Information War ..............

Listen at 10:15 about Politicians ......

H

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J. Livingston's avatar

Stopped going to my own college Homecoming weekend which had been intellectually exciting and gave us insights into the university’s breaking fields of academic scholarship and research. A few years ago, the topics changed to social justice harangues and feel good student projects requiring no academic discipline whatsoever. We stopped going, and I stopped contributing.

I question the conclusion the more educated, the more liberal one becomes. Today the more indoctrinated by higher education with garbage and nonsense, the more liberal one leaves an institution that never challenged a single student who entered their once august portals.

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J. Livingston's avatar

Should one large command and control union, who has long played hardball partisan politics, represent the taxpayer-funded employees of virtually all county election office across our entire nation. Including Santa Barbara county.

Is this healthy for our democracy?

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J. Livingston's avatar

Get to know who your tax dollars are supporting.

The same large national union that created Obama out of a useless Chicago machine politician into the President of the United States and is till fighting for his fourth term as our shadow president, is the same union that also represents employees in virtually all county election offices across this country, including ours.

There is your nationwide election command and control opportunity. There is the source for the barrage of exact same talking points that attempt to control our national political dialogue. Therein resides the one-party hive mind that now penetrates all levels of our own government.

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Pat Fish's avatar

I have thought for a long time that the only way you truly vote is with your dollars. How you spend your money is the one thing that really has an impact. Say all you want about the necessity of voting, if the tabulating machines are manipulated we have no democracy.

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J. Livingston's avatar

Voting against new taxes and bond issues is also how we choose to spend our money.Best when they are presented for mutual benefit, rather than as hostage demandsas our current government agencies now choose to do.

Today we hear …..Pass this bond required by our own fiscal recklessness,or we will punish you

It used to be……let.s all pitch in and build the kids a community swimming pool.

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Stephen H Siemsen's avatar

Growing up my father always used to say "Americans vote on Election Day - and every time the reach for their wallets." I remember him telling me in the 1960's, "If I buy a Chinese product, a Chinaman has a job; when I buy an American product, even if it costs more, an American has a job." That all changed with Reagan when manufacturing started to move offshore in order to bust America's labor unions. Remember those "look for the union label" commercials put out by the Garment Union? The empty, boarded up factories outside Dad's small Minnesota town are a testament to Americans "voting with their wallets" and undercutting American labor in a "trickle down" scheme to increase dividends to shareholders at the expense of American manufacturing and organized labor. I bought my last pair of Levi's when I was stationed in San Antonio shortly before Levi's LAST U.S. production facility closed and I have not bought a pair since.

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Justin's avatar

The bad ones on the right are the exception, the bad ones on the left are the rule. I'm so sorry you live in a world where you have to demonize the opposition instead of having a reasonable basis for support. Have you Considered that voter purges right before the election is voter suppression? Why didn't they purge the voter rolls 6 months ago, giving people reasonable time to fix what may be wrong with their registration? Wrong address, misspelling, etc. If you move to a state that requires 1 year of citizenship before you can vote, should you just lose your right to vote for that time? Your solution is poorly thought out, full of asinine talking points. Your opening argument about educated people leaning left sums up this article.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Justin, my point stands on the reality that there is an objective Truth, and an objective moral standard. Let me make this clear; According to the objective moral standard it is always impermissible to murder an innocent person. On the right, this is the moral position held by most, and the exceptions are few, but just that, exceptions. On the left, it is just the opposite, the left believes it is legal and even "healthcare" to murder an innocent, and there are a few on the left who disagree, they are the exception. This is true of nearly every moral issue in the public square. This is not demonization, this is truth. We could demonstrate it by going down the list of moral questions..... The left will generally be on the wrong side of the objective moral standard.

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Justin's avatar

First, Start by defining innocent. Is the child who steals from the cookie jar still innocent? Is the child who is born Palestinian still innocent? Give me a objective definition of innocence that can be applied universally without exception. I think by your moral standard a bomb is a high crime and sin. A bomb is not selective and therefore anybody who uses it is a murderer of innocence.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Justin, a universal truth about innocence is that it is a condition by which we can state a moral universal i.e. If a human person is innocent, it is impermissible to murder him. Here "innocent" is a relative condition out of which a universal cannot be abstracted. Yet, here is a universal statement about innocence; a child in the womb is always innocent, therefore it is impermissible to willfully terminate a life in the womb. You are confused about universals and particulars and worse, you are clearly a moral relativist and a subjectivist, which means you probably won't understand what i have given you here.

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Justin's avatar

Perhaps you're right and that I am not smart enough to understand your line of reasoning. But you still haven't defined innocence. Therefore you haven't reasoned out why it's impermissible to murder an innocent. But I do like how your reasoning follows that as soon as the child is born we don't need to give a flip about them anymore. I take it you're not Catholic and therefore don't believe that the child in the womb has original sin.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Justin, you are willfully obtuse. I can't tell how smart you are, but incoherent for sure by deformation and at this point certainly willfully ignorant. The left says it is permissible to murder an innocent, I don't need to reason that out, either that is permissible or it is not. But just for the sake of the astute reader, here is the reason: the first principle of ethics (first principle is an indemonstrable self-evident truth) is that we must never do evil. If you don't agree to this, then we are not in dialogue. But assume the self-evident truth that we must never do evil holds, for surely it does in the hearts and minds of good people. Second, we say it is evil to murder an innocent. Murdering a child in the womb or out of the womb is murdering an innocent and therefore evil. You don't need a definition of a common sense term like "innocence" to reason to the moral truth. And equivocating with the Catholic notion of original sin and fallen nature and guilt is just too far beyond your understanding.

And it most certainly does not follow that I don't care for children after they are born, that is an asinine leftist talking point and so ridiculous. I am Catholic and I must assume you are not because you clearly don't understand Holy Mother's Doctrine and Dogma. Talk about what doesn't follow WOW Justin!

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Justin's avatar

Did you mean to say indemonstrable? What ethics system are you relying on for your first truth? I thought you believed in Aristotelian philosophy, but that is not an aristotelian ethic. Telos sits above that, something that I don't think you have been able to do in your arguments. Your definition of evil and never doing it is sophomoric. Some evil may be necessary. The child punished for stealing from the cookie jar will believe that his punishment is evil, however it may be necessary for their cultivation. Trying to place an objective analysis on the situation is fraught with peril and can easily be deconstructed. So I will ask one more time, what is innocence?

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Aimee Smith's avatar

I know, it is a tough spot to be in, Steven. How can you come up with a definition of "innocence" that can allow Israel to use US treasure and political influence to block food aid, indiscriminately bomb, use sniper fire on children, tolerate decades of sexual torture of detainees and carry out land theft and ethnic cleansing if they are Palestinian? Few people have as much "self-confidence" as you do, but unfortunately, the overwhelming evidence of Israel's aggressive, genocidal criminality makes the challenge too much even for your incredible level of audacity. My prayer for you is that you face the truth and overcome your Jewish supremacist brainwashing so that you can be part of the movement to rebuild our country's Christian moral foundation. Pro-life means no wars of aggression, no collective punishment, no occupation (no euthanasia, no IVF, no abortion, no cloning...) "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." "Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord."

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Monica Bond's avatar

Aimee, while you generally start your letters out in a good fashion, you do end up, as Polly stated, "haranguing" people in trying to convince them of your position. I, too, am a sympathizer of the Palestinians plight but do not feel that I need to insult people to get my point across. Also, you can spout scripture till the cows come home but too much is too much. Unfortunately you and Theotokas are prone to too much preaching which in my eyes makes both you and he not very good ambassadors for your church which is sad because I can see you are very passionate about it. Faith is a personal thing and some folks, like me, don't appreciate the lecturing.

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Aimee Smith's avatar

You may or may not find this article worth considering. All the best! (I am really thinking "May God Bless you" but I have been conditioned by those demanding I speak in their secular terms to replace it with something Godless!) https://keithwoods.pub/p/secularism-is-here-to-stay

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Aimee Smith's avatar

Thanks for the feedback. I am mostly directing my comments to theists like Steven and I have reason to believe he would agree with me that conceding the public discourse to be a religion-free discussion space is implicitly endorsing materialism/secular humanism. To me, this is the main point, not a side issue. If I am correct, the genocide of the Christians and Muslims in Palestine with our resources and political influence would not be possible if we had not abandoned our spiritual grounding in Christianity. We face a spiritual assault and without putting on the armor of God and discussing how our faith can help us, I see no way to have anything worthy of the name "civilization" to leave our children and grandchildren. If we do manage to revitalize the moral consciousness of our society, we can help change the US into a force for peace in the world instead of regime change wars, genocides, color revolutions and coups. You need not agree or even consider my posts worth reading, but this is what I think is important to share and only I can decide what to write in my name for myself just as only you can decide what you should be posting in your name for yourself. God Bless.

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Polly Frost's avatar

Aimee, I don't understand you. You harangue people like that's going to do any moral good. Nor are you ever going to debate anyone out of being pro-abortion. Yesterday I talked about what I think would be the greatest blow to abortion - mandatory ultra sound tests before an abortion can be performed. No politician who runs on anti-abortion, making it illegal, will ever win. But mandatory ultra sound would make sense on a procedural level and it would squash the clump-of-nothing-nonsense women believe. As for you saying that Stephen is a Jewish supremacist - you know, women say sh&# like you do because you don't get punched like a guy would.

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Aimee Smith's avatar

If Steven has a convincing explanation for why he believes Jews in Israel are above the moral law other than Jewish supremacism, I will retract, replace and apologize for being incorrect.

People who think they can win arguments with physical coercion like punching someone in the face are not convincing, imo. But don't worry, Steven likes to throw stones, so don't assume he lives in a glass house. I think he can take it and for whatever it is worth, I believe he is capable of better, so this direct honest challenge is not meant to harm, but to spur what, at least in my understanding, would be spiritual improvement. Also, I do not judge people for being brainwashed. Who among us has never been brainwashed into one or another hurtful belief? Vaccines are safe and effective? Ivermectin is horse paste? Abortion is "health care"? Office fires brought down the twin towers? Iraqi soldiers threw babies out of incubators in Kuwait? Iraq had WMD? St. Sera ran death camps? This is not an immutable property I am talking about. It is failure to dig deep into the evidence and failure to consider the bias in the info you are consuming. It is in his power to remedy.

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Justin's avatar

Apologies for the grammar and syntax. Voice to text is not always great, and I have a very busy morning. Also substack doesn't let you edit posts on the app, you have to go into the web browser which is a pain.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

No worries Justin, your meaning is clear even if your thinking is not.

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Michael Self's avatar

“Innocent” = unborn

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J. Livingston's avatar

Voter purges are not voter suppression because one illegal voter suppresses my one legal vote. Which is more important to you, Justin?

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Stephen H Siemsen's avatar

I see that another Republican has been convicted of election fraud and is going to prison for 9 years for tampering with voting machines to get Trump more votes during the 2020 election.

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Steven Jonathan Rummelsburg's avatar

Skittles and Ice Tea! It must be exhausting for you to be the glue that holds the house of cards together.

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J. Livingston's avatar

Remove the word games used after the highly questionable 2020 election.

No evidence of widespread voter fraud was oft repeated.

However this election turned on demonstrated incidences of discrete, targeted election process fraud that was never fully explained.

Voter fraud is very different from election process fraud.

Neither needed to be widespread, when in fact the 2020 election was decided nationwide by only 43,000 total vote coming from key swing states, late at night. In curious and still explained vote dumps.

Democrats try to distract with voter fraud, when in fact their own partisan union members control virtually all of the nationwide election process mechanisms. Volunteer,be an election observer no matter how long the now try to stretch Election Day into increasingly murky election counting weeks.

Democrat games, disguised as election reform, has undermined election integrity. While they loudly scream it is Trump and the MAGA right-wing extremists who are “stealing our elections”. Such hateful, venal people.

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