Great article. California reminds me of Thelma and Louise. We wonder why the suffering Iranians don’t revolt against the mullahs, and yet we are governed by an equally repressive regime in Sacramento. Why don’t we revolt ?
Driving off retired military and open doors for illegals coming across the southern border- what a concept. I’d wager that our local congressman Salud Carbajal supports the same sort of lunacy as our “ representative” in Washington DC
We should retire him and send Bob Smith in his place.
Carbajal's voting record speaks loud and clear...emblematic of the California's fall from grace...and greatness. Apparently this is what the majority of voters in CA desire and expect. These are the same people who vote for more regulation and higher taxes...even on themselves...then it is what is (or has become) as identified Commander's Smith's piece.
Thank you, Bob. You have my vote and I'm not a Republican. I'm a former Democrat - or rather I consider myself to have been a true Democrat and the people who run this state and this city having hijacked the party. I'm an Independent now. I mention this because I want to see you win. I don't think the Republican Party stands a chance in this state. They won't stand up for the leaders they should stand up for. Like Trump. Except for people like you and some others like Kevin Kiley, who I also really like, the Republicans don't talk in the present tense. If I have to hear ope more Republican go on about the greatness of Reagan … he's dead, guys, tgat era is over. They need to talk the way you are right now, about the disgraceful way our state's elected officials are treating our best citizens. And they need to understand that it's these people now being forced out of this state to make way for homeless and illegal Dem voters. But tomorrow it'll be them this Dem run state is turning on. Because that's all the Dems have to stay in power.
Yet another stupid money grab by California’s money sucking vaccum of a government! I did not know this, and would never stay here if I were retired military for this tax alone! I don't blame military retirees one iota for getting the fuck out of Dodge!
Howard, I recall going to a few retirement parties at ITC when my wife was the company's HR rep working back in the 1980's. And retired engineers were headed to Florida. Retired engineers at Raytheon headed to Oregon and other less expensive areas to live. I'm not sure about Florida now, house prices have gone up a lot and hurricanes don't make it an attractive state to live in. I would have stayed in CA except I was booted out by SB City and corrupt Dem Feds coming to the aid of the city.
I think I left ITC around 1988 or 1989 like most of the Engineers did.
Carlson wanted me to stay on and I did so under a contract. I cannot
remember you wife at HR but than again I did not communicate with HR, only Engineering, QR, Drafting, Machine Shop and Production and the Ceramic Folks at Channel. Did you know Cliff Adelhelm head of QR he ended up later President of ITC
Neither Ann nor I recall Cliff Adelhelm. Cliff did OK for himself! I see FLIR is owned by Teledyne. I worked at Teledyne Systems in Northridge for about a year or so and then Litton Aero Products attracted me over to them to work on designing radio nav hardware. Teledyne and Litton were constantly trying to attract each other's employees.
Bill do you remember Chris Basforth head of Marketing at ITC 1985 to 2001. Had alot of fun with Chris and the Engineers with Bill Bunker. I found Chris at her Linkedin and sure enuf she has her ITC experience below> Lives in Solvang
Yes, Chris was a good friend of Ann's. Here's a funny story about Bill. When Ann got another job as a director of a Fortune 500 company for lots more money than she was making at ITC, Ann purchased a new Audi TT in Monterey when celebrating my birthday. When Ann went out to lunch with Bill when she had her new job, Bill just couldn't accept the fact that Ann had an expensive car. Very funny reaction from Bill. I liked Bill, very easy going. When I was working on my steam plant I was looking into using a piezo device to atomize fuel. This was back in the late 1970's when I lived in Van Nuys. I sent ITC a letter and Bill responded to the letter ... never mentioned this to Bill, but I think he was only designing back then.
A step in the right direction for sure - and it only took over a decade of it getting disapproved to get there. But this tiny amount won’t offset the cost of living here. This amounts to a few hundred dollars to $1800 max for the year of tax savings, if they even qualify.
An example. Let’s say an E-8 retired at 30 years. That’s $70k/year in retirement pay. Let’s say their spouse is a nurse also at $70k. That retiree could live in FL, TX, or TN without working again, but almost everyone does. So this skilled 30 year defense person takes a contract job for $135k per year. They no longer qualify for this $20k exclusion because family income is now over the limit. If they live in FL, they can buy a great house and save $19k per year in state taxes. Thats pretty much a house payment for the year in FL or TN. If they stay here in Santa Barbara with no equity or inherited family house here plus the additional $19k in state taxes, it’s a financial sink comparatively. The one thing every retiree gets is a fully paid final move to anywhere in the country. So the question is still “why stay here?” And why the modest tax break? Just exempt the entire military retirement pay portion if you are the worst state at retaining this group, and one of the states because of bases that needs them the most.
Wow, where else but the government can a couple retire at 55 and live off an untaxed pension of $140K (If I'm reading your numbers properly). Probably into at least their 80s or beyond. So work 30 years - then get the next 30 plus years paid for?
Sounds pretty good to me. You know better than I, but I'm assuming most go on to get another income or career. Double dipping and getting 140K? I think you could live just fine anywhere but coastal CA with that kind of income.
People choose a retirement location for all sorts of reasons. Weather, tax incentives, close to family, etc. I think those all roll into the "why stay here" question. Honestly, if I had moved every two years, I doubt I'd stay in CA.
It’s just the military pension of $70k - not 140k. Thats not great considering you lived paycheck to paycheck in some of the highest cost areas of the country/world for 30 years, moving every 2-3 years all over planet earth and not building equity anywhere. And that’s the entire point, “you can live just fine anywhere else” and that’s why 98% of retiring military members choose just that.
Military members also routinely work 60 plus hour weeks for that 30 years, and much more than that when deployed. No overtime. Compare that to first responder employees here of which many qualify for overtime…
My opinion is because of the cost of living here now, you’d have to go all tax free on the military pension. That would be enticing because jobs here generally pay a bit more. I don’t think you’ll keep everyone because it’s the same problem for many that are leaving CA. Housing and cost of living is just better elsewhere. But even if you retained a few % more and they were taxed on their post military career salary, it would offset the tax loss pretty quickly from the 2% now that stay.
There is a lot of data on that available that’s been used to support exempting military pension. CA is potentially losing tax revenue to these other states. So if it’s a win for the veteran and a win for the state, should be a no brainer.
So you complain about taxation of your government pension? Social security is taxed, 401 k withdrawals are taxed, private pensions are taxed. What makes you so special? Now you are running for public office so you can draw even more from the public coffers? Why don't you take some of your valuable experience and create something instead of further milking of the public tit?
I love it when retired "public servants" complain about taxation of pensions. I along with everyone who worked in the private sector don't got no stinking pensions just our 401k which are taxed as ordinary income. I don't think anyone should get a pension derived from public funds paid for people like me with no stinking pension. Cry me a river Bobby.
Hi Jeff. This isn’t about me. This about keeping some of the 98% that are leaving CA because it’s financially unaffordable to stay. I currently do create something. I work in private industry. I have deadlines and margins that actually matter. I make more than a congressman does. I actually despise career politicians that live in a world of not creating anything, no deadlines, budgets don’t matter, etc.
I’m running to improve our community, state, and country at personal sacrifice to myself and my family.
Do you pledge to donate your salary to charity? Listen Bobster, California is expensive for everyone. It is a really bad look to bitch about taxation of your pension when most of us plebes don't have a pension and if we do it is taxed. A bad look to seek public office compensated by taxes while complaining about paying taxes that everyone else pays.
Jeff, you are missing the point. This demographic of people are saying "no thanks" to CA. These are qualified workers, civically active people, and high propensity voters. Instead of addressing why they don't want to be here, you make it personal. I would gladly tax my military retirement if everyone else was exempt.
I'm merely expressing that this is a problem. This community that put their lives on the line for our freedoms clearly states that this state is their least desired state. You are confusing me with our establishment that makes every decision in self interest. Instead of figuring out how to keep that community you are throwing shade. BTW, that community is Democrat, Republican, LGBT, etc... when it comes down to best decision for their family, CA is not it.
Big Bobaroni, I have news for you, it is not only veterans with pensions who find this state unaffordable. I hate to break it to you but it is even harder for those with no pension at all so stop your bellyaching. Did you know that roofers put their lives on the line every day to protect us from the elements. Roofers are more likely to die in the servics of fellow man than sailors. Your self aggrandizement and and self pitty are unbecoming and unmanly.
Plus if you win you can collect double pensions. Two reasons to complain about paying taxes. You sound like a big fraud to me but that's just my opinion. You might be better than Carbajal but not more honest.
I actually wouldn’t. You need to serve a minimum of 5 years and be age 62. The formula is high 3 x years x 1.7%. I won’t do more than 2 presidential terms. I believe in term limits and I’m personally against “career politicians.” I don’t believe our system was intended to be people who never did a real job with deliverables, deadlines, budgets, leading/organizing other people, etc for life.
I will not be close to 62 8 years from now. I intend to go back to my real career of being an engineer. And if I was 62, at 8 years, the pension would be $23k/year. Which I would happily donate to a local charity. The only person in this scenario that doesn’t do any legislation and is adding to a pension is Salud Carbajal.
I’m not sure where the “dishonest” comment comes from either. Nothing in this thread is dishonest. 98% of veterans don’t want to stay in this state, I’m in the 2% because of my wife’s family roots, or I would most likely also be in that 98%. There are 49 other better options for retiring military members. Instead of discussing why that is, you are making it a personal attack. Also having done roofing and the military, I assure you one is sacrificing significantly more in their line of duty. Military members aren’t paid well, have no option for overtime or additional pay, miss years of their family’s lives, and people on ships right now in the Red Sea are being fired at monthly.
Every roofer in the U.S. can raise their hand and enlist. It’s a wonder that the military isn’t flush with former roofers.
Good article. Pointing out yet another way CA hates success.
“Why is California incentivizing undocumented individuals to stay, while actively disincentivizing the retention of veterans “
As Rockefeller said, he needs workers. Do the Dept of Ed was created to teach basic skills so kids could become factory & manufacturer workers.
CA apparently values agriculture , hence illegals who avg $15/hour in pay with no taxes. Employers profits are much higher with illegal labor. verse the Minimum wage and payroll taxes to hire legal citizens.
And then theres the need for gardeners, maids, etc….
Democrats from the days of Plantations enjoy their indentured servants.
Keep them uneducated and they will not rise up against the master. Make them believe, make them dependent upon the master so they stay compliant.
Free medical, school, housing. $30 Billion/year to support illegals.
Local property taxes, $60 million/year towards educating illegals in our k-12 schools.
Meanwhile our local government attacks property owners.
Talk about an animal that bites the hand that feeds them.
Commander Smith tells us “California has more military retirees than any other state. And 98% of them leave.” This sounds like an exaggeration to me, but I am curious as to how many of those retirees where from California? Many of the people I served with returned to their home states upon retirement, or to one of those states with better tax advantages, like Texas and Florida. But, honestly, as a native Californian, I had only one destination when I retired, and I planned accordingly...and west Texas is too hot and dry, and east Texas and Florida are way too humid for my central coast blood. I am still hoping to see California "wake up" and exempt military retirement pay from State Taxes, but I remain curious as to why the Nation that we served does not do the same? Billionaires are given tax breaks, why not retired military? Commander Smith tells us "Pew Research indicates that 63% of military veterans identify with or lean toward the Republican Party. In my experience, even the most progressive service members would likely be viewed as moderates by California standards." Yes, even I am a registered Republican, which is why I oppose the draft-dodging convicted felon currently in White House, who only left the Democrat Party to become a RINO in order to run for office to further his grifting. From my comments in SBC you all know that I am, indeed, a moderate. This RINO, who avoided military service 5 times by lying about his feet, is now kidnapping and deporting immigrants who did serve our country honorably, including war veterans and purple heart recipients, along with their wives, children, and parents. (Retired Army Warrant Officer)
As a fellow vet with intelligence background, can’t believe that you can’t see that we are at war (2nd American Revolution). Trump is acting field general for the counter insurgency (backed by US Military, less than 10 know the full op & 7 are generals)…
No thanks. I will continue to stand by the Constitution I swore to defend, including against a draft-dodging adjudicated rapist who led an insurgency against the peaceful transfer of power on January 6, 2021; who stole hundreds of classified documents he stored in his bathroom; who violated the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878; and whose plain-clothed agents are now kidnapping U.S persons off the street without warrants or due process - all in violation of the Constitution that you also swore to protect.
OK Friend, but also good to follow the pen…up is down, left is right (inversion)…here’s some insight into actions taken by Team Trump during his first term. It’s a bit of a long trudge but worth considering…
Since we are sharing clips, here is one for you, amigo! "You can cut all the flowers, but you can't stop the Spring." Pablo Neruda. Spring will come after the dark Winter of Trump ¡Sí, se puede! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apioa00Ukzg
Yes very well said Commander Bob, and from personal experiences. This article raises the next question: What has Salud Carbajal done for veterans?
It seems very little yet he touts his military service like he was at the battle of the bulge.
And Salud’s focus over his decades in government service has been on importing, protecting and supporting illegal immigrants. Leaving our state and nation with struggling retired military veterans, while illegal aliens are hand fed by Salud like his prized chickens.
Time to retire Salud and send a real veteran to DC.
Thomas, He's actually never served, he was a reservist that's never been activated for 1 minute. He's never stepped foot outside of the U.S. in a uniform.
He doesn't personally show up to 100 year old veteran ceremonies. No one on the defense side in D.C. even knows who he is. Salud's time of spouting off as an experienced veteran is over - it's a political hustle and fortunately we have a real veteran to call him on it now.
Copy. I'll look into that. But the reserve is still way more than our cracker jack "law school" Cole has done.
But you're dissing 'revervists' now? From my take there are what, 20 desk jobs supporting one person in combat? Do the 19 in the background have that much more clout over a reservist who has a job but still wants to serve their country?
And Bob, just as a heads-up. If you want to get moderate voters in this state pissing on somewhat popular elected officials won't help you. If you want to go full MAGA, good luck with that.
You're going to kill your campaign early. The state could probably use an old-school fiscal conservative who has a liberal bent on social issues.
If your audience is the 2% of military that stayed after retirement that don't want to pay taxes on their nice pension again, good luck with that.
Thomas. You should actually talk to me and understand what I'm about. You are welcome to call.
Salud has played a stolen valor theme to everyone here. Its wrong. I don't diss reservists. I've said this 100 times. If Salud would say, "I joined the reserves for citizenship and college money." I would simply say "thank you for your service." I am 100% onboard with military service for citizenship.
I'd also like to clearly state that Vietnam and OEF/OIF reservists were activated and saw hell on earth. This isn't about reserves...
What I'm not okay with is, "as a veteran..." which Salud says almost daily, then applies it to everything.
"As a veteran...i understand what our servicemembers go through...
" Do you? Have you have ever deployed? Have you have ever led men and women in harms way or stressful ops? Have you ever left a spouse at home being a single parent.
"As a veteran I understand what's needed at the VA..." Do you? You have never been in VA. You don't have access. You never went through the weird lowest bidder VA labs we went through...
"As a veteran i understand PTSD" Do you? You have never done one activated minute.
You see my point. It's constantly using this veteran status without the veteran experience. If a surgeon that was operating on me told me, "as a surgeon..." but he's actually never done a single medical procedure, I'd ask for a more qualified opinion...
You might not like this one, but Carbajal introduced a legislative package to prevent the deportation of parents of U.S. servicemembers with the idea of keeping military families together - don't know where that went though.
This week, a U-haul regional manager told me they were being swamped with truck and van reservations OUT of Los Angeles. “We’ve seen an increase over the past few years, but this week was insane… I’ve never seen anything like it.”
Thanks Bob for enlightening us about an important issue. You helped me understand why more of the military retirees from the San Diego area do not stay. Sadly the high cost is a tough issue for all retirees who have not lived here long enough to have owned a property for years. Favoring the migrants compounds the problems.
Yes. For a separating service member, there is absolutely zero financial sense to stay here. The favored states are Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. Take my case in particular. I work for a company HQ’d in Washington D.C. I could live anywhere in the country and keep this same job. In fact we have offices in Austin and Orlando. If a financial advisor looked at my situation objectively, they would no doubt tell me to go to Florida or Texas asap. My reason for staying here is my wife’s roots and family, because it’s certainly against my financial interest.
I understand. My sister and her husband left California for Florida because of cost. It is against our financial interest to remain in California and similar to you, we remain for family although we do discuss relocating as our income is completely portable.
It is easy to blame Gov. Newsom for poor fiscal management. However, as Bob Smith points out, we actively attract illegals who are generally low income and more likely to vote democratic, while purposely penalizing middle and upper middle class earners, many of whom are independent or republican. This is a long-term insidious strategy designed to maintain the state's mono-party and boost a democratic congressional footprint in Washington.
Teachers union membership numbers are a primary beneficiary of open borders and the major Prop 98 mandatory tax allocation to state public education. Students are not. Along with SEIU social services employee member.
These two mega-forces drive California Democrats politics today, along with the construction trades unions pushing housing for everyone as a right. Open borders s their mother’s milk.
This is the real face of the Democrat Party today in California. Follow the money and follow the immediate howls now that the money is running out and the final ROI has became dreck.
All didn’t go to Texas. Some went to FLA, N.C., Ohio, Virginia and Idaho. In every single case my former employees who could barely afford a room in a house here in SoCal are thriving in their new locations with multiple houses, cheap energy, low crime rates, money in the bank, married with children and a “normal” life.
It has nothing to do with timing. Everything to do with proper management of a state run by people who actually care about quality of life. Even today I recorded a email from one in Texas, a picture of his wife and baby, in the background gas price is less than half what we are paying here. That is today! 06/28/25…That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Not sure if you checked or not, but let's look at some numbers.
Normal life is subjective. Skipping that.
Married with children is also not related to them being here or there. Skipping it.
Low crime rates. Seeing that you listed states, all I can do is go by states. But wait . . . can we really do that? See, Florida, only 8% of the agencies report to the FBI, whereas in CA it is 49%. Why is it that Florida has the LOWEST of any state? What are they hiding? I can go anecdotal and compare South Florida to Santa Barbara if you want. In 36 years of South Florida, I had a couple of bikes stolen, a few violent encounters, and someone trying to get into my house in the middle of the night because they had been injured. In 23 years of Santa Barbara, I have had two small statues stolen from in front of my door. So without the reporting, what do you have? It really becomes subjective, and what the media portrays.
Cheap energy - that is somewhat subjective as well. Yes, the per kWh is cheaper in every other state, but the usage? In Florida, you are using AC 7x24. In Ohio and Idaho, you will have heating bills. I'd be curious what the cost of keeping warm is for those people during the winter.
Multiple houses - supply and demand. That ain't happening in FL or Texas or Virginia or NC right now. Maybe Idaho if you are far enough out. The housing issue is interesting because the average salary could not afford the house even if the land and labor were free. The components to build the house have increased a lot over the last 20 years.
And if your employees could barely afford a room in a house, uhh, maybe they left you because you didn't pay well enough?
People are mobile. They like to move around. In CA, they are less apt to do that if they have been in a place for a while due to Prop 13. I remember having a conversation with a friend in 2002 here in SB. This is just when pricing for housing was going way up. He pointed to a section in the Mesa that in 1999 was selling for 280k, that was now over 1mm. Amazing what happens when you adjust the biggest lever there is in a PITI payment. I remember buying a place in 98 and HAPPY that I was getting a 7.5% interest rate.
In regards to gas, that is such a red herring. The state can control one thing and one thing only, the amount that they tax it. There is about a 45 cent per gallon difference in taxes added by the state compared to Texas. Let me put an ASTERISK there because in CA gas also has a sales tax associated with it (2.25% for the state), and that will vary depending on where it sold because there can be district taxes added to it. Why is this a red herring? Because it is insignificant in the scope of things. If a person has a vehicle getting 30 mpg and drives 15k miles, that is 500 gallons of gas during the year. The difference that the STATE impacts, again, this is YOUR arguement, is about 50 cents, so that would be about $21 per month.
The other aspects of the delta in pricing is not STATE imposed. It is capitalism.
I'm sure you're probably right, you have obviously put a lot of thought and mental gymnastics into your explanation.
Just lost 2 more local business friends/clients one to Idaho (Coeur D'Alene) and one to Colorado (Montrose)...2000+sqft house on 1+ acres for under $500K, gas at $2.75/ga., business startup and taxes less than half what they are here, better public schools for the kiddos....etc.
Their companies are moving with them, about 100 employees....
People are still leaving California in droves for cheaper housing, cheaper costs of living, less crime, lower taxes, better startup business costs...weird, huh? I'll send them your explanation how it's "apples and oranges" and all in their heads!🙄😂
Eric, we can have a substantive conversation about this or trade sarcasms—that's your choice.
While your examples are anecdotal, they do reflect a real pattern I've observed throughout my life. I had a front-row seat to IBM's move from New York to Boca Raton in the early 1970s. The MBA consultants made compelling presentations about Florida's advantages: FAU was one exit away, no state income taxes, lower wages, cheaper housing, and land costs. IBM opened their facility, invented the PC there, and by the mid-1980s had already abandoned the operation.
Why? Because the promised benefits didn't materialize as expected.
Yes, they got lower wages, but they also discovered there was no talent pipeline. FAU wasn't producing the caliber of employees they needed, and the talent they wanted kept leaving Florida for higher-paying opportunities elsewhere. I've witnessed this pattern repeatedly—businesses that depend on skilled talent often struggle in these relocations, while companies that primarily need bodies (rather than specialized skills) can successfully chase lower labor costs, eventually moving overseas entirely.
The IBM experience was particularly telling. They sold their Armonk employees on the Florida dream—some bought the pitch, others saw it as a chance to be closer to retired parents. But within a few years, complaints started mounting about how terrible Florida was compared to their previous locations. Many moved back, with or without IBM.
Let's examine Idaho specifically. It's a state with 2 million people total. There's a reason the population remains so low—if it were truly superior, it would be populated like California. It fits a certain lifestyle and demographic, which is fine, but let's be realistic about the trade-offs.
Those 100 employees who relocated—congratulations if they're happy. But what happens if their employer fires them? Kootenai County's largest employers show limited options. Most people making these moves are following a specific job opportunity.
Here's the crucial question: did the employer maintain California wages or adjust to local market rates? Hint: most adjust downward. Idaho's average household income is under $75,000, while California's exceeds $95,000. The lower cost of living often comes with correspondingly lower wages.
The pattern is predictable: initial enthusiasm about lower costs and "better quality of life," followed by the reality of limited career opportunities, reduced earning potential, and often a desire to return to larger markets with more robust economies and career prospects.
“Eric, we can have a substantive conversation about this or trade sarcasms—that's your choice.”
David, I am older and have experienced much…I have found that when someone is peeing on my legs but tells me that it’s just raining; that the choice of sarcasm is prudent. 😊
You are not realizing the main difference between the two eras, that is the current bottom up pressure to move. It is about opportunity and quality of life.
Your comparisons to events from 50-60 years ago were top down decisions and today are ringing hollow. The wages paid are the same because the markets are global. The talent is initiating these moves for their own benefit. Not the other way around.
As I expressed in my opening post to this discussion, it is the talent requesting movement, the workforce, not the bean counters and CEO’s like myself
The moves in these cases are coming from the bottom up.
Another article that uses some other topic to push their agenda. And the irony is that the article is full of misinformation.
OMG . . . you mean RED states also tax military? California, Montana, Rhode Island, Utah and Vermont all fully tax military retirement income.
Offer nothing in return? What a line of BS. Sounds like the author wants to LEECH off the state. What a parasite. He wants all the benefits of living in the state without paying for it. Where is the HONOR in that?
I chuckle at this line, "High taxes, unaffordable housing, and the crushing cost of daily life, send a clear message to retiring service members: this state may have trained you, stationed you, even buried your friends — but it has no intention of keeping you."
Wait? Wut? Housing is housing. Where is it 'affordable?' People buy the payment. CA has one of the lowest property tax rates of any state in the US. Want to compare that to Florida? You know, the place with NO state income tax? A $1mm house in Florida will cost you about 28-30k per year in property taxes. In CA, that is 11k. If you think that your military income is going to generate 17k in state taxes, what the heck did you do to earn that? By the way, that would be about 225k in income as a single to pay that tax.
Crushing costs of daily life? What the heck does that mean and how does the state control that?
Sorry, your whole article sounds like a cheap person whining for benefits for free, at the cost of others. Isn't that what Republicans call socialism?
I knew it would not take long to get to immigrants. "Meanwhile, the state has poured billions into programs like Medi-Cal for undocumented immigrants"
So let me understand your point. You want someone to subsidize your lifestyle because you worked, yet the immigrants who work can not get the same? This is why this article comes across as a whining, give me something for free waste of pixels.
In Calif one million gets you a small condo, for your $11,000 a year property taxes. Failed comparisons are lying too, DB. What sector of Calif are you really running protection for I your comments?
Percentages are percentages. Florida's property tax rate is about 2.5-3%. CA's is static because of Prop 13. Florida and those other no income tax states have appraisers, and your property's value fluctuates each year.
Florida's homeowners' insurance is significantly higher than that in CA. As I have to write the check each year for my inlaws, a house that is WORTH 250k has homeowners', through the state, Citizens United at $6,820 per year. This is not on the water, this is ~20 miles from the ocean.
Florida's car insurance is also drastically higher than CA's. Yet, isn't that the 'crippling daily costs?'
When you say CA, you must mean all of CA. You are trying to say Santa Barbara. There are very expensive places to live in every state. Land is not being made anymore. In YOUR lifetime, the US population has almost grown by 300%. When you have desirable places for people to live, then you have demand higher than supply.
You and others, IMO, are foolish. If you want to argue qualitatively, I will step away. That is subjective, and there is no right or wrong, just how you feel. If you want to argue quantitatively, you will lose. The argument that this OP is making is cherry picking. It does not look at the totality. The totality is both sides of the equation: Income and Expense. Now, I am not going to bring up fixed income because the OP mentioned that military retirees are going into second jobs. But when you look at the income of a CA resident compared to a Florida or Texas resident, the CA income is 30% higher. When you look at the expense side, well, CA food is probably $200 per year higher per person. Gas, that is such a variable because of distance and mpg. But to make it easier, it is probably ~$450 per year higher in CA. Your car insurance, homeowners' insurance is probably ~$3000 per year higher in those other states.
LOL. You people learned nothing from your Biden/Harris disasters. But thanks for your laundry list of attacks and insults. We will be ready for you in 2026. Keep it up. We appreciate the heavy detail in your argument.
Democrats are dead for at least another generation. You have nothing to offer, but do have a massive amount of a past grift to protect. So attack away. You 100% missed the national mood in 2024, doubling down with more of the same proves you are a bankrupt party. Which is too bad, because several of us were former Democrats, now lost to the party forever. Ask us why.
I do not care what party you are affiliated with. That is up to you. I do not care who you vote for. That is up to you.
I can't fix the inability to comprehend.
I can't fix the inability to be objective.
I can't fix the inability to not think that other US citizens are your enemy.
For the 'party' that screams personal responsibility, there seems to be a lot of deflection from their followers of their own personal responsibility for their actions.
Hi David. You are actually failing in this math. Veterans with a disability rating in FL get a huge break in property taxes. There’s no math that you can do that will show CA is a better state financially than FL for retired Vets. I don’t know any retired Vets that don’t get rated at least 10% disability to receive those benefits. There are many sites that rate states for retired Vets and CA is at the bottom.
Just go to chat gpt and type “where does CA rank in best states for retired Vets to live.”
Also, no one is leeching off the state. It would the exact opposite. These veterans will be working a post military job, just like everyone else here, and paying state income taxes on it. Plus their property taxes, and all the other taxes that come with living in CA, which includes spending their military retirement in the state economy. Instead of incentivizing a person who has been moved all over earth every 2-3 years for decades to stay here and contribute to the state - you’d rather they leave and contribute to a different state?
If you want to do this objectively, we can. If you are going to do this without any depth, let's just move on.
If you want to break things down quantatively, let's do it.
I will go point by point, proving that you are inaccurate.
1. Property tax deduction in Florida. This is a fixed dollar amount that lowers the appraised value of your residence. This value is $5,000. As this is based on appraised value, it has more value on a cheaper house. Florida is odd in how they do property taxes. They are a combination of county and state settings. The county appraises the property yearly. That methodology is set by the county. As I have/do own multiple properties in multiple counties in Florida, they are different! Some counties the appraised value is close to what the value is for selling, others it can be 3/4 of the value if you sold it. However, when you buy a property, it reassess. Let me cheat and just use a tax collector's calculator. In Pasco County, if you just purchased a 500k house and LIVE there, your property taxes are estimated to be 7984.67 Now, if you apply the 5k veteran discount, they drop to 7899.95. Wow, that is a HUGE savings. /end sarcasm. Now, there is an edge case to get them to make you look better, you have to be combat related disabled vet and over 65. But, then again, you are telling me that these are people that are just retiring from the military and starting other jobs.
2. Better financially. Hmm. Tampa is the 2nd largest MSA in Florida. It has 3.4mm people in it. The 2nd largest MSA in CA is Riverside area with 4.7mm. The closest to Tampa would be San Diego-Chula Vista at 3.4mm. Since 2000, the property values in Tampa have increased by 5.1% annually. San Diego and Riverside MSA has increased by ~6.3% per year. In 2000, the average sales price in Tampa was 135k, San Diego was 250k, Riverside was 150k.
Now, the beauty of math. If you bought in 2000, so 25 years later, what is it worth today? If you are telling me that people are retiring from the military at 40, then working, maybe they retire at 65 and downsize.
In Tampa, you would have a house that is worth 468k. In San Diego, your house would be worth 1.15mm, in Riverside, it would be worth 690k.
Had you bought in San Diego, you would have an extra 683k compared to Tampa, and in Riverside, an extra 222k compared to Tampa.
That is just your house, you know, an ASSET.
Let's look at income. I am trying to stay with my 25 years :), but am stuck with 2024 data, so this is slightly projected. I am also using a single person.
2000: Tampa - 32,930, San Diego 35,414, Riverside 26,823
2025: Tampa - 87,743, San Diego 91,121, Riverside 55,025
Riverside MSA is such an odd place because all the warehouses drag that wage down big time! I wish I could find a way to exclude that data.
But you will now say, what about state income tax. Can I counter with what about toll roads? You will counter, what about gas? I will counter with, that is insignificant.
Let's have some more fun with math. How about using property taxes + state income tax in each MSA over 25 years?
During those 25 years in San Diego, that person paid 52,669 in state income tax. The Riverside person, again, bad usage because of the warehouses/farming paid 24,223. In Florida it was zero.
Here, let me cut/paste from ChatGPT :)
Complete 25-Year Financial Picture:
Tampa:
Home appreciation gain: +$333,168
State income tax: $0
Property taxes: -$114,322
Net Position: +$218,846
San Diego:
Home appreciation gain: +$901,520
State income tax: -$52,669
Property taxes: -$100,095
Net Position: +$748,756
Riverside:
Home appreciation gain: +$540,912
State income tax: -$24,223
Property taxes: -$60,057
Net Position: +$456,632
Final Comparison:
San Diego advantage over Tampa: +$529,910
Riverside advantage over Tampa: +$237,786
Key Insight: Even after accounting for both California state income taxes AND property taxes, both California markets significantly outperformed Tampa. Proposition 13's protection against rising property taxes was crucial - without it, California residents would have paid $78,778-$47,267 more in property taxes, significantly eroding their real estate wealth gains.
The combination of superior real estate appreciation and Proposition 13's tax protection created substantial long-term wealth advantages for California homeowners, despite paying state income taxes.
Do you really want to argue over ~$500 per year in extra gas costs? Do you want me to do this same with car insurance, homeowners insurance? Then, let's talk about the bad times that may occur during those 25 years. CA UI covers 26 weeks at $450 a week, Florida covers 12 weeks with a $275 a week max.
Yeah . . . math.
If you want to argue that you will FEEL better not living in CA, that is fine. That is subjective. I can disagree and we are both right. But numbers, numbers do not lie. If the person talks to someone who is looking out for them financially, showing income, expenses, appreciation, etc. That person will point them to CA all the time. Sure, there may be a HIGHER entry cost to get into the CA space, but the return will be higher.
Do you want me to continue proving that the OP is asking to leech from the state?
David, honestly this is a bunch of irrelevance. We aren't talking about going back in the past and buying a home for its overinflated value here, that's now 14.3X the median salary, the highest of any state, not good for families trying to buy a home. An E-8 getting out of the military is not looking for real estate investment, they need a home for a family of four, and a job today in 2025.
E-8 Pension after 20 years: $50k
E-8 Post Military Salary: 125k (Working for Govt or Defense Contractor)
Spouse Salary as Nurse: $75k
Family Total Income post military (the first time making a good living in over 20 years): $250k
Option 1: House in Carpinteria (3 Bedrooms needed for family of 4) - to work at Naval Base Ventura County: Cheapest on the market today is $1.67M for 1240 sqft.
They need to get this down to $919k to qualify for a VA loan. So $700k down payment, which they assuredly haven't saved during a military career. But let's say they did:
Down payment: $700k
Mortgage Payment: $6171/month
Property Taxes: $17868
State Income taxes: $15,277
Income left after mortgage and income/property taxes: $90K (plus the expense of their entire life savings in down payment if they had it - which I get is equity now, still is money they do not have for life expenses now, which they do in option 2)
Option 2: House in Tampa (Range for similar home is 300K -550k. Let's call it $450k for 1598 sqft.
State Income taxes: $0 (this is half the year's mortgage payments)
Income left after mortgage and income/property taxes: $158K
All other taxes in CA are more expensive than 49 other states, the cost of living depending is top 3, so no point in even writing a wall of text on that versus FL.
I'm not sure what year you are living in, but it definitely isn't 2025 for a family of four. Thank you for the conversation. I'm not going to continue to argue with you over the affordability of living and housing in CA, every human in the U.S. and thousands of sites will tell you differently.
Here you can see CA has an economic rank of 51st (includes D.C.) for retiring military:
NO! That is not how it works in Florida at all. It is NOT the property taxes minus 5,000. It is the APPRAISED VALUE that the assessor uses as the basis minus 5,000. CA is such an awesome state in understanding how simple property taxes can be. The purchase price is the basis. It is 1.1% year one and can go up 1.01% per year, based on the purchase price + any additional IMPROVEMENTS to the property. There are NO appraisers. In Florida, each county has their own appraiser. It is a governmental position. The appraiser values the land and the building on it. It is impacted by MARKET conditions as well as IMPROVEMENTS on the building. That is the baseline value, then they start by reducing that value with deductions. Those deducations are homestead exemptions (have to live in it and be a state resident), disabled, veteran, etc. Those deductions are generally dollar amounts, not percentage amounts. Once you get a new value, then the appraiser applies the county multiplier on it, then the city multiplier on it, then various other bond issues on it. That is how the property tax is determined. Here is a calculator, for one place that I own property in! https://bcpa.net/TaxCalc.asp is for Broward County, This PDF explains those deductions and it is from Pasco County - https://pascopa.com/documents/pdfs/Understanding_Homestead_Exemption_and_Other_Benefits_Brochure_2024.pdf This is the house that YOU listed in tampa - https://45.32.81.52:8585 It ESTIMATES that the taxes, with homestead are going to be 5900-7000 a year if it sells for 450k.
In the most simplistic way of understanding this, citizens demand services from the government. These services cost money. The government needs a source of income for those services. How they get it is what we are arguing about. If it was a 450k house in Carp, the property taxes would be ~4500 a year. Now, would you complain that FL is 7k? That is the issue regarding property taxes. So, CA has a progressive income tax. Which, in the scheme of things is SMARTER. Florida started to realize that. Why is CA's smarter? It keeps property taxes LOW, for a LONG TIME. When you retire, then what? Your income goes to fixed and you are not looking at the huge variable of property taxes. Florida is trying to solve this with 65+ property taxes, as well as property tax portability.
Now to the rest of your response. We are in complete agreement that housing costs today are more expensive as a percent of income than they were 20-40-60 years ago. This is not exclusive to military. It is for ALL citizens in the US. I bought my first house in Florida 35 years ago. I paid it off within 5 years. I just looked it up. Four years ago it sold for about 6.5 times more than I paid for it. It took 31 years to go 6.5x. Did income go up 6.5x since then? NO. That is a huge issue IMO. The next huge ISSUE is simple math. Let's make the land free. The cost to build that house is STILL beyond the ability for the average worker to own. If you look at the national builders, a good proxy because they churn out clones of buildings as fast as possible, 65% of the sale price is their materials and labor. So go and find that new home in Santa Maria that is 600k and you will see that the cost to build, without the land is nearly 400k. This is an issue.
The next issue is the resale of houses. Is the house worth at least replacement cost? That is what is going on in Florida right now. I have four deals on my desk to look at. If I can buy the house for less than replacement cost, it is really a land deal or a rental deal. Considering that there are so many places for sale, it is a rental deal.
I sincerely understand the angst and what is being said by others who have different agendas. I know both of these markets well. As a parent, I realize that my child will not have the capacity to earn enough to buy a place in Santa Barbara. That is disheartening. However, that is capitalism and that is economics. No one is entitled to live where they desire. If that were the case, then the country would have even more people on the water :)
I can tell you when I moved here I was excited. Sure, my house cost 3x from what I left. However, my property taxes were higher in dollars, but as a percentage, it was almost 1/3rd using the value of the house (from 3.2% to 1.1%) My homeowners was 20% the cost of what it was in Florida. I did not have to have flood insurance like I did in Florida. My car insurance was almost 50% cheaper. My food costs went up such a tiny amount. Sure, I paid more in gas, but in a weird way, I drove less miles per year. Look that up, it is interesting, CA drivers drive about 85% of the miles of a Floridian per year. So the extra gas cost was not relevant, because I saved on the total gas expense.
In regards to the wallethub article, please, scroll down and read their system. This does NOT apply to what the OP is talking about. The economic side does not mention the INCOME increase. This whole thing is assuming the person stays retired, thus a fixed income. If a person is on a fixed income, then HELL YEAH, GET OUT OF CA. Chase where your expenses are minimized. If you are continuing working after getting out of the military, CA will wind up better for you when you are ready to retire. Getting over the hurdle in how to buy a place, well, that is an issue for ALL people, regardless of military or not. I would say that the military people have a better shot at it though because their pension supplements their income! Most people will not have that.
Do you want to get into the qualitative aspect? Look at that place in Florida? 10/10 for flooding, etc. Schools that are 2/10? Compare that to Carp. :)
And this is where Wallethub and SmartAsset mislead people. I am taking YOUR scenario and slightly cheating for simpler math :) Look at the interest on the house.
California Scenario
Income: $250,000
Mortgage: $1,000,000 at 6% interest-only
Annual mortgage interest: $60,000
Property taxes: $15,000
Federal tax: $29,706
California state tax: $8,864
Total tax bill: $38,570
Florida Scenario
Income: $250,000
Mortgage: $450,000 at 6% interest-only
Annual mortgage interest: $27,000
Property taxes: $6,500
Federal tax: $38,045
Florida state tax: $0
Total tax bill: $38,045
Key Findings
Tax Impact: Moving to Florida saves you only $525 annually in taxes. This small savings occurs because while you eliminate California's state income tax ($8,864), your federal tax increases by $8,339 due to lower itemized deductions in Florida.
Total Annual Savings: $42,025
Tax savings: $525
Mortgage interest savings: $33,000
Property tax savings: $8,500
Important Notes
SALT Cap Impact: The federal $10,000 SALT deduction cap significantly limits your California tax advantage since your property taxes exceed this amount.
Mortgage Interest: The largest savings comes from reducing your mortgage debt by $550,000, which saves $33,000 annually in interest payments.
Net Result: Despite California's higher state taxes, the federal tax system's limitations mean the tax difference is minimal. The real financial benefit comes from the reduced mortgage debt and lower property taxes in Florida.
This is my whole point. The tax situation because CA has a state income tax is NOT an issue. For $525 per year would you rather live in that flood zone, bad schools or live in CA? :)
The issue is getting into the house in the first place. It MAY be easier in CA due to the fact that you will have a higher INCOME than in FL. But you will have more money going to pay down an asset. Remember, my whole assumption is that this is a person getting out at 40 years old, collecting that pension, then going to WORK for the next 25 years. The property you buy in CA will appreciate FASTER than the property you buy in Florida. Then, when you do retire for good, you will have MORE money in retirement.
Here is one other thing to think about to stress that point. I am looking at a deal right now, about 20 minutes north of where you showed that place in Tampa. It was built in 1982. I do not know the original price. In 2005, it sold for $150k. I am in negotiation to buy it, need some more t's and c's, but the price has been agreed to, at 195k. Yes, the owner is losing 3 points to the broker, so their net appreciation in 20 years was 39k. Where does that happen in CA? :)
- the cost of housing here is NOT because it’s paradise. We all went to the UCSB economic summit a few weeks ago and they clearly showed the cost of housing/living here is primarily driven by state and county over-regulation.
- 14.3x income for home cost means you either are wealthy, have existing equity from decades ago, or have inheritance, otherwise you cannot start equity/life here in much of SB county. There are no 500k houses here for a family, doesn’t exist. My house in MD for my last DC job, closed at 492k, 5000sqft, 0.5 acre yard. That doesn’t exist here. CA has an average home cost of 880k compared to the US’s 400k. And if you remove the inland counties that average cost skyrockets.
As a military retiree with my post military career, it does not matter where I live. I’ll make the same amount in any state, and we have offices in Orlando and Austin. The benefit a military person has over a person stuck here is that they get a fully paid final move to anywhere - if you could choose anywhere to start over with a middle class income and no equity, you really can’t make a case to stay here for million dollar plus 1200 sqft homes, when there are 300k better homes in states that don’t tax you, with similar jobs.
I get this is a problem for anyone. But retired military have an easy button to leave. 38 Other states fully exempt military retirement and offer property tax benefits to entice qualified workers to stay/come. If CA could retain 2% more of these people, it would more than cover the tax loss with taxing their post military careers.
The cost of housing/living is a major problem for the federal government recruiting young talent. I ran a large organization here in the DoD. We simply couldn’t hire young graduates, like good cyber engineers that start at 70k here in the federal government, when they can go to FL, TX, or TN. Every tech company has this same issue here in coastal CA, and they can pay more than the govt can to start. That’s why the tech companies are leaving. Again, it’s over-regulation, not the weather driving costs…
The over regulation in labor laws also incentivizes companies to leave. Ask any company that has offices in multiple states, they will quickly tell you CA is their least desired state to hire anyone from in those offices.
If you have money to flip houses like you are doing in the real estate market, then great. But for an average middle/working class person just trying to buy a family home or a college grad getting a starter home to build equity, CA is broken.
Thank you for this thoughtful conversation and for your understanding of how property taxes work in Florida.
While we have some disagreements, I appreciate our major areas of agreement.
I'm intentionally setting aside the military-specific aspects here because this housing affordability crisis affects everyone, not just service members.
You're right that 14.3x is high, but this isn't new—it's capitalism at work. While regulations play a role, they haven't exclusively caused this problem. What you're experiencing has been happening for generations and will continue. Growing up in South Florida, my family couldn't afford Coconut Grove, Key Biscayne, or oceanfront properties either—those areas were probably 14.3x income ratios too. They cost more because demand exceeded supply, just like we see everywhere now.
Land is the one resource you can't make more of (though South Florida did create some by filling swampland west of I-75 until environmental concerns stopped it in 1972). Areas like Montecito and Beverly Hills have likely maintained similar price-to-income ratios for over a century.
Since 1940, the U.S. population has nearly tripled, and over 60% of Americans live within 60 miles of a coast. This has dramatically impacted costs. Regulations do affect density—like Santa Barbara's building height restrictions and the current fight over the 80-foot building behind the mission. Without any regulations, developers would build without considering infrastructure impacts. So yes, regulations matter, but are they solely responsible for 14.3x ratios?
I'm still kicking myself over advice I got in 2003. A prominent local realtor told me people were buying rental properties that weren't cash-flow positive—losing about 10% the first year and breaking even around year eight. She said, "People are buying now to lock in prices so their kids can have somewhere to live later. They're willing to lose $200k over ten years because they think appreciation will cover it, and giving their children housing security is worth more than the financial loss." My younger, less experienced self didn't think hard enough about it. She was absolutely right.
The Panda Express salary postings at Five Points perfectly illustrate our broader issue. Someone can start putting food on plates and become a store manager earning $80-90k within three years. Compare that to teachers who need a bachelor's degree plus 600 hours of certification training, only to earn less than Panda managers while dealing with political scrutiny, difficult parents, and active shooter drills. Police officers require training and earn $102k, but for an extra $12-22k over Panda management, they face people trying to kill them instead of angry customers throwing orange chicken. An Army E-1 makes $25k annually (plus room and board) while dealing with actual bullets instead of food.
This is capitalism in action—employers pay market rates to get jobs done. There's competition between private and public sectors for workers.
Regarding "over-regulation in labor laws"—if that's code for "business friendly," you've hit one of my biggest pet peeves. Having taken companies public and managed over 2,000 employees, I know what "business friendly" often means: doing whatever you want to employees with zero consequences. That's exactly why labor laws exist.
In Florida, I could demand 90-hour weeks with no overtime from salaried employees. Sure, they could quit, but those needing paychecks would comply—I had the gold, I made the rules. California is different. There's a minimum wage for tech workers (around $120k this year). Employers aren't forced to pay it, but if they do, they can require 60-hour weeks and on-call duties. Pay less, and it's standard hours with no overtime or on-call expectations. I even learned that offices with certain numbers of these employees must have on-site showers—apparently because companies were having people pull all-nighters and... well, hygiene became an issue for everyone else.
Managing over 2,000 employees in California wasn't problematic. I didn't find regulations burdensome unless you wanted to exploit workers.
For a supposedly "terrible" state, California still has the largest workforce and economy in the U.S. Those who leave are typically ones who dislike rules protecting consumers and employees, often relocating to places like Texas, which has shown it prioritizes business interests over citizens, environment, or worker welfare.
David, thank you for the discussion and the details between the states. I'll still stick with over regulation is the primary problem though. It was enlightening hearing from our UCSB and UCLA professors on it a few weeks ago, they had many examples and the numbers. It's almost as if SB County is competing against the state in who can add more regulations to make everything cost more or be impossible. The high speed rail that didn't lay a foot of track is a perfect example. Everything attempted here is bogged down in CEQA, lawsuits, and regulations. Just about every tributary in this county is protected for steelhead trout, even ones that haven't had water in them for 60 years...
I'll also hold that workforce and economy isn't a great indicator in a vacuum. China is #2 on that...not a great country for its people with quality of life, authoritarian, state run everything, no liberty, labor exploitation...
Here are some other CA metrics to go with that #1 state GDP:
- Poverty (SPM): worst in US
- Outmigration of citizens: #1 in US
- Homeownership: 49th in US
- Homelessness: #1 in US, while spending $24B of our taxes on it as an industry for NGOs, and it's rising
- Per capita debt: #1 in US
- Education: 37th, with 72% of highschoolers not meeting state standards
- Infrastructure: ASCE C- overall grade, D+ roads, C water, C- transit, $100B in school maintenance backlog
This isn't because of Capitalism. This is all government mismanagement and corruption. We pay the highest overall taxes here, we should be top 3 in these things. It's way past time to remove many of the people in office. That's not just a slight at the other side for me. I know many competent Democrats/No Party Preference that have tried to get civically active and the people in control block everyone from getting a voice, they have the seat already and the corrupt puppet. That's why many positions go uncontested. If people in the middle don't stop clicking the incumbent that has a D next to their name, nothing will change.
Great article. California reminds me of Thelma and Louise. We wonder why the suffering Iranians don’t revolt against the mullahs, and yet we are governed by an equally repressive regime in Sacramento. Why don’t we revolt ?
Driving off retired military and open doors for illegals coming across the southern border- what a concept. I’d wager that our local congressman Salud Carbajal supports the same sort of lunacy as our “ representative” in Washington DC
We should retire him and send Bob Smith in his place.
Of course Salud supports these ideals.
Why else would he be a career politician. Once they get their foot in the door, they have benefits for life, along with pay offs and corruption.
Carbajal's voting record speaks loud and clear...emblematic of the California's fall from grace...and greatness. Apparently this is what the majority of voters in CA desire and expect. These are the same people who vote for more regulation and higher taxes...even on themselves...then it is what is (or has become) as identified Commander's Smith's piece.
Thank you, Bob. You have my vote and I'm not a Republican. I'm a former Democrat - or rather I consider myself to have been a true Democrat and the people who run this state and this city having hijacked the party. I'm an Independent now. I mention this because I want to see you win. I don't think the Republican Party stands a chance in this state. They won't stand up for the leaders they should stand up for. Like Trump. Except for people like you and some others like Kevin Kiley, who I also really like, the Republicans don't talk in the present tense. If I have to hear ope more Republican go on about the greatness of Reagan … he's dead, guys, tgat era is over. They need to talk the way you are right now, about the disgraceful way our state's elected officials are treating our best citizens. And they need to understand that it's these people now being forced out of this state to make way for homeless and illegal Dem voters. But tomorrow it'll be them this Dem run state is turning on. Because that's all the Dems have to stay in power.
Yet another stupid money grab by California’s money sucking vaccum of a government! I did not know this, and would never stay here if I were retired military for this tax alone! I don't blame military retirees one iota for getting the fuck out of Dodge!
Mathew, I could not say it any better than you. "Getting Fuck Out of Dodge"
where SB is the City where their Attorney Gunslingers extracts all the communities
money from targeted Lawfare. Welcome to Corrupt CALI.
Howard, I recall going to a few retirement parties at ITC when my wife was the company's HR rep working back in the 1980's. And retired engineers were headed to Florida. Retired engineers at Raytheon headed to Oregon and other less expensive areas to live. I'm not sure about Florida now, house prices have gone up a lot and hurricanes don't make it an attractive state to live in. I would have stayed in CA except I was booted out by SB City and corrupt Dem Feds coming to the aid of the city.
I think I left ITC around 1988 or 1989 like most of the Engineers did.
Carlson wanted me to stay on and I did so under a contract. I cannot
remember you wife at HR but than again I did not communicate with HR, only Engineering, QR, Drafting, Machine Shop and Production and the Ceramic Folks at Channel. Did you know Cliff Adelhelm head of QR he ended up later President of ITC
for 23 years and now at FLIR weblink>
https://www.linkedin.com/in/clifford-adelhelm-54a3004b/
Neither Ann nor I recall Cliff Adelhelm. Cliff did OK for himself! I see FLIR is owned by Teledyne. I worked at Teledyne Systems in Northridge for about a year or so and then Litton Aero Products attracted me over to them to work on designing radio nav hardware. Teledyne and Litton were constantly trying to attract each other's employees.
Bill do you remember Chris Basforth head of Marketing at ITC 1985 to 2001. Had alot of fun with Chris and the Engineers with Bill Bunker. I found Chris at her Linkedin and sure enuf she has her ITC experience below> Lives in Solvang
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-bashforth-797637139/
Yes, Chris was a good friend of Ann's. Here's a funny story about Bill. When Ann got another job as a director of a Fortune 500 company for lots more money than she was making at ITC, Ann purchased a new Audi TT in Monterey when celebrating my birthday. When Ann went out to lunch with Bill when she had her new job, Bill just couldn't accept the fact that Ann had an expensive car. Very funny reaction from Bill. I liked Bill, very easy going. When I was working on my steam plant I was looking into using a piezo device to atomize fuel. This was back in the late 1970's when I lived in Van Nuys. I sent ITC a letter and Bill responded to the letter ... never mentioned this to Bill, but I think he was only designing back then.
Bill, almost everyone I knew has left. They cannot stand SB anymore.
The Feds have TAKEN OVER the City and the County.
Most were BOOTED OUT.
Great article Bob, very informative. We will be supporting you in the 24th.
WOW is the only comment I can find.
ETS - 1971
Teaching Credential in 3 subjects
6 years Sub teaching with letters of recommendation
Not one job offer with a contract.
Asked around as why?
Answer as an Army Vet. I was blackballed.
What has changed in Calif?
Greater prejudice from former military and intentional heavy handed taxes.
Thanks for the comment article.
Looks like the CA tax code has changed for 2025 and CA won't be taxing all of their retirement benefits.
But that said, our state as well as the nation could treat active and retired military better.
https://www.vetfundfoundationca.org/post/victory-for-veterans-california-approves-military-retirement-tax-exemption
https://lao.ca.gov/LAOEconTax/Article/Detail/820
A step in the right direction for sure - and it only took over a decade of it getting disapproved to get there. But this tiny amount won’t offset the cost of living here. This amounts to a few hundred dollars to $1800 max for the year of tax savings, if they even qualify.
An example. Let’s say an E-8 retired at 30 years. That’s $70k/year in retirement pay. Let’s say their spouse is a nurse also at $70k. That retiree could live in FL, TX, or TN without working again, but almost everyone does. So this skilled 30 year defense person takes a contract job for $135k per year. They no longer qualify for this $20k exclusion because family income is now over the limit. If they live in FL, they can buy a great house and save $19k per year in state taxes. Thats pretty much a house payment for the year in FL or TN. If they stay here in Santa Barbara with no equity or inherited family house here plus the additional $19k in state taxes, it’s a financial sink comparatively. The one thing every retiree gets is a fully paid final move to anywhere in the country. So the question is still “why stay here?” And why the modest tax break? Just exempt the entire military retirement pay portion if you are the worst state at retaining this group, and one of the states because of bases that needs them the most.
Wow, where else but the government can a couple retire at 55 and live off an untaxed pension of $140K (If I'm reading your numbers properly). Probably into at least their 80s or beyond. So work 30 years - then get the next 30 plus years paid for?
Sounds pretty good to me. You know better than I, but I'm assuming most go on to get another income or career. Double dipping and getting 140K? I think you could live just fine anywhere but coastal CA with that kind of income.
People choose a retirement location for all sorts of reasons. Weather, tax incentives, close to family, etc. I think those all roll into the "why stay here" question. Honestly, if I had moved every two years, I doubt I'd stay in CA.
It’s just the military pension of $70k - not 140k. Thats not great considering you lived paycheck to paycheck in some of the highest cost areas of the country/world for 30 years, moving every 2-3 years all over planet earth and not building equity anywhere. And that’s the entire point, “you can live just fine anywhere else” and that’s why 98% of retiring military members choose just that.
Military members also routinely work 60 plus hour weeks for that 30 years, and much more than that when deployed. No overtime. Compare that to first responder employees here of which many qualify for overtime…
The 140K/yr was I mentioned, was per couple, as you outlined above.
So would a tax-free, or partial tax free pension keep any of the 98% of retiring military from leaving?
My opinion is because of the cost of living here now, you’d have to go all tax free on the military pension. That would be enticing because jobs here generally pay a bit more. I don’t think you’ll keep everyone because it’s the same problem for many that are leaving CA. Housing and cost of living is just better elsewhere. But even if you retained a few % more and they were taxed on their post military career salary, it would offset the tax loss pretty quickly from the 2% now that stay.
There is a lot of data on that available that’s been used to support exempting military pension. CA is potentially losing tax revenue to these other states. So if it’s a win for the veteran and a win for the state, should be a no brainer.
So you complain about taxation of your government pension? Social security is taxed, 401 k withdrawals are taxed, private pensions are taxed. What makes you so special? Now you are running for public office so you can draw even more from the public coffers? Why don't you take some of your valuable experience and create something instead of further milking of the public tit?
I love it when retired "public servants" complain about taxation of pensions. I along with everyone who worked in the private sector don't got no stinking pensions just our 401k which are taxed as ordinary income. I don't think anyone should get a pension derived from public funds paid for people like me with no stinking pension. Cry me a river Bobby.
Hi Jeff. This isn’t about me. This about keeping some of the 98% that are leaving CA because it’s financially unaffordable to stay. I currently do create something. I work in private industry. I have deadlines and margins that actually matter. I make more than a congressman does. I actually despise career politicians that live in a world of not creating anything, no deadlines, budgets don’t matter, etc.
I’m running to improve our community, state, and country at personal sacrifice to myself and my family.
Do you pledge to donate your salary to charity? Listen Bobster, California is expensive for everyone. It is a really bad look to bitch about taxation of your pension when most of us plebes don't have a pension and if we do it is taxed. A bad look to seek public office compensated by taxes while complaining about paying taxes that everyone else pays.
Jeff, you are missing the point. This demographic of people are saying "no thanks" to CA. These are qualified workers, civically active people, and high propensity voters. Instead of addressing why they don't want to be here, you make it personal. I would gladly tax my military retirement if everyone else was exempt.
I'm merely expressing that this is a problem. This community that put their lives on the line for our freedoms clearly states that this state is their least desired state. You are confusing me with our establishment that makes every decision in self interest. Instead of figuring out how to keep that community you are throwing shade. BTW, that community is Democrat, Republican, LGBT, etc... when it comes down to best decision for their family, CA is not it.
Big Bobaroni, I have news for you, it is not only veterans with pensions who find this state unaffordable. I hate to break it to you but it is even harder for those with no pension at all so stop your bellyaching. Did you know that roofers put their lives on the line every day to protect us from the elements. Roofers are more likely to die in the servics of fellow man than sailors. Your self aggrandizement and and self pitty are unbecoming and unmanly.
Plus if you win you can collect double pensions. Two reasons to complain about paying taxes. You sound like a big fraud to me but that's just my opinion. You might be better than Carbajal but not more honest.
I actually wouldn’t. You need to serve a minimum of 5 years and be age 62. The formula is high 3 x years x 1.7%. I won’t do more than 2 presidential terms. I believe in term limits and I’m personally against “career politicians.” I don’t believe our system was intended to be people who never did a real job with deliverables, deadlines, budgets, leading/organizing other people, etc for life.
I will not be close to 62 8 years from now. I intend to go back to my real career of being an engineer. And if I was 62, at 8 years, the pension would be $23k/year. Which I would happily donate to a local charity. The only person in this scenario that doesn’t do any legislation and is adding to a pension is Salud Carbajal.
I’m not sure where the “dishonest” comment comes from either. Nothing in this thread is dishonest. 98% of veterans don’t want to stay in this state, I’m in the 2% because of my wife’s family roots, or I would most likely also be in that 98%. There are 49 other better options for retiring military members. Instead of discussing why that is, you are making it a personal attack. Also having done roofing and the military, I assure you one is sacrificing significantly more in their line of duty. Military members aren’t paid well, have no option for overtime or additional pay, miss years of their family’s lives, and people on ships right now in the Red Sea are being fired at monthly.
Every roofer in the U.S. can raise their hand and enlist. It’s a wonder that the military isn’t flush with former roofers.
Can you fix my power chair?
Good article. Pointing out yet another way CA hates success.
“Why is California incentivizing undocumented individuals to stay, while actively disincentivizing the retention of veterans “
As Rockefeller said, he needs workers. Do the Dept of Ed was created to teach basic skills so kids could become factory & manufacturer workers.
CA apparently values agriculture , hence illegals who avg $15/hour in pay with no taxes. Employers profits are much higher with illegal labor. verse the Minimum wage and payroll taxes to hire legal citizens.
And then theres the need for gardeners, maids, etc….
Democrats from the days of Plantations enjoy their indentured servants.
Keep them uneducated and they will not rise up against the master. Make them believe, make them dependent upon the master so they stay compliant.
Free medical, school, housing. $30 Billion/year to support illegals.
Local property taxes, $60 million/year towards educating illegals in our k-12 schools.
Meanwhile our local government attacks property owners.
Talk about an animal that bites the hand that feeds them.
Commander Smith tells us “California has more military retirees than any other state. And 98% of them leave.” This sounds like an exaggeration to me, but I am curious as to how many of those retirees where from California? Many of the people I served with returned to their home states upon retirement, or to one of those states with better tax advantages, like Texas and Florida. But, honestly, as a native Californian, I had only one destination when I retired, and I planned accordingly...and west Texas is too hot and dry, and east Texas and Florida are way too humid for my central coast blood. I am still hoping to see California "wake up" and exempt military retirement pay from State Taxes, but I remain curious as to why the Nation that we served does not do the same? Billionaires are given tax breaks, why not retired military? Commander Smith tells us "Pew Research indicates that 63% of military veterans identify with or lean toward the Republican Party. In my experience, even the most progressive service members would likely be viewed as moderates by California standards." Yes, even I am a registered Republican, which is why I oppose the draft-dodging convicted felon currently in White House, who only left the Democrat Party to become a RINO in order to run for office to further his grifting. From my comments in SBC you all know that I am, indeed, a moderate. This RINO, who avoided military service 5 times by lying about his feet, is now kidnapping and deporting immigrants who did serve our country honorably, including war veterans and purple heart recipients, along with their wives, children, and parents. (Retired Army Warrant Officer)
Oh, not a real officer? Perhaps you can blame your middling achievements on Trump.
As a fellow vet with intelligence background, can’t believe that you can’t see that we are at war (2nd American Revolution). Trump is acting field general for the counter insurgency (backed by US Military, less than 10 know the full op & 7 are generals)…
https://x.com/fnowisthetime/status/1939057407642218596?s=61
It’s also a Worldwide war. Our final battle, Good v Evil… https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/united-against-the-invisible-enemy-of-all-humanity
No thanks. I will continue to stand by the Constitution I swore to defend, including against a draft-dodging adjudicated rapist who led an insurgency against the peaceful transfer of power on January 6, 2021; who stole hundreds of classified documents he stored in his bathroom; who violated the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878; and whose plain-clothed agents are now kidnapping U.S persons off the street without warrants or due process - all in violation of the Constitution that you also swore to protect.
What a lame post.
OK Friend, but also good to follow the pen…up is down, left is right (inversion)…here’s some insight into actions taken by Team Trump during his first term. It’s a bit of a long trudge but worth considering…
https://patelpatriot.substack.com/p/devolution
PS. Ever hear stories of Trump assisting in the clean out of 5 big NY NY crime orgs back in the ‘80s? The swamp runs deep…
Since we are sharing clips, here is one for you, amigo! "You can cut all the flowers, but you can't stop the Spring." Pablo Neruda. Spring will come after the dark Winter of Trump ¡Sí, se puede! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apioa00Ukzg
Interesting, but I’m not a supporter of open borders…have buddies in the trades that have been hurt by mass migration…
https://x.com/wallstreetapes/status/1937534293460566177?s=61
Also don’t like my fellow citizens being harmed & killed by people that don’t follow rules…one harmed citizen is one too many…
https://x.com/marinasmigielsk/status/1935060299259809927?s=61
https://x.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1300428396493758464?s=61
What a sad but typical CA state of affairs. The Democrat motto has always been “Penny wise but Pound foolish”.
Yes very well said Commander Bob, and from personal experiences. This article raises the next question: What has Salud Carbajal done for veterans?
It seems very little yet he touts his military service like he was at the battle of the bulge.
And Salud’s focus over his decades in government service has been on importing, protecting and supporting illegal immigrants. Leaving our state and nation with struggling retired military veterans, while illegal aliens are hand fed by Salud like his prized chickens.
Time to retire Salud and send a real veteran to DC.
Well that’s OK. But it shows where his thoughts are. It’s all about protecting illegals.
He's done more for the military than just this one bill. But you already know that...... And he's served in the military.
Thomas, He's actually never served, he was a reservist that's never been activated for 1 minute. He's never stepped foot outside of the U.S. in a uniform.
He doesn't personally show up to 100 year old veteran ceremonies. No one on the defense side in D.C. even knows who he is. Salud's time of spouting off as an experienced veteran is over - it's a political hustle and fortunately we have a real veteran to call him on it now.
Copy. I'll look into that. But the reserve is still way more than our cracker jack "law school" Cole has done.
But you're dissing 'revervists' now? From my take there are what, 20 desk jobs supporting one person in combat? Do the 19 in the background have that much more clout over a reservist who has a job but still wants to serve their country?
And Bob, just as a heads-up. If you want to get moderate voters in this state pissing on somewhat popular elected officials won't help you. If you want to go full MAGA, good luck with that.
You're going to kill your campaign early. The state could probably use an old-school fiscal conservative who has a liberal bent on social issues.
If your audience is the 2% of military that stayed after retirement that don't want to pay taxes on their nice pension again, good luck with that.
Take the high ground. Be gracious.
Thomas. You should actually talk to me and understand what I'm about. You are welcome to call.
Salud has played a stolen valor theme to everyone here. Its wrong. I don't diss reservists. I've said this 100 times. If Salud would say, "I joined the reserves for citizenship and college money." I would simply say "thank you for your service." I am 100% onboard with military service for citizenship.
I'd also like to clearly state that Vietnam and OEF/OIF reservists were activated and saw hell on earth. This isn't about reserves...
What I'm not okay with is, "as a veteran..." which Salud says almost daily, then applies it to everything.
"As a veteran...i understand what our servicemembers go through...
" Do you? Have you have ever deployed? Have you have ever led men and women in harms way or stressful ops? Have you ever left a spouse at home being a single parent.
"As a veteran I understand what's needed at the VA..." Do you? You have never been in VA. You don't have access. You never went through the weird lowest bidder VA labs we went through...
"As a veteran i understand PTSD" Do you? You have never done one activated minute.
You see my point. It's constantly using this veteran status without the veteran experience. If a surgeon that was operating on me told me, "as a surgeon..." but he's actually never done a single medical procedure, I'd ask for a more qualified opinion...
Copy. I get that this goes against your grain. And if I were in your shoes, it would no doubt bother me as well.
Absolutely perfect!
He’s a punk and HE knows it.
You might not like this one, but Carbajal introduced a legislative package to prevent the deportation of parents of U.S. servicemembers with the idea of keeping military families together - don't know where that went though.
Time for your ass to get back to the Delta. Last thing California needs are a bunch of fucking billies.
This week, a U-haul regional manager told me they were being swamped with truck and van reservations OUT of Los Angeles. “We’ve seen an increase over the past few years, but this week was insane… I’ve never seen anything like it.”
Thanks Bob for enlightening us about an important issue. You helped me understand why more of the military retirees from the San Diego area do not stay. Sadly the high cost is a tough issue for all retirees who have not lived here long enough to have owned a property for years. Favoring the migrants compounds the problems.
Yes. For a separating service member, there is absolutely zero financial sense to stay here. The favored states are Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. Take my case in particular. I work for a company HQ’d in Washington D.C. I could live anywhere in the country and keep this same job. In fact we have offices in Austin and Orlando. If a financial advisor looked at my situation objectively, they would no doubt tell me to go to Florida or Texas asap. My reason for staying here is my wife’s roots and family, because it’s certainly against my financial interest.
Thank you for stepping up to run for change in our state’s disastrous status quo. We are here to help. Best wishes, Bob Smith.
I understand. My sister and her husband left California for Florida because of cost. It is against our financial interest to remain in California and similar to you, we remain for family although we do discuss relocating as our income is completely portable.
It is easy to blame Gov. Newsom for poor fiscal management. However, as Bob Smith points out, we actively attract illegals who are generally low income and more likely to vote democratic, while purposely penalizing middle and upper middle class earners, many of whom are independent or republican. This is a long-term insidious strategy designed to maintain the state's mono-party and boost a democratic congressional footprint in Washington.
Teachers union membership numbers are a primary beneficiary of open borders and the major Prop 98 mandatory tax allocation to state public education. Students are not. Along with SEIU social services employee member.
These two mega-forces drive California Democrats politics today, along with the construction trades unions pushing housing for everyone as a right. Open borders s their mother’s milk.
This is the real face of the Democrat Party today in California. Follow the money and follow the immediate howls now that the money is running out and the final ROI has became dreck.
I run a few high tech businesses.
Years ago my employees begged me to move my businesses to Texas so they could have a “normal” life; afford a house, get married, and start a family.
I listened and sympathized but couldn’t move because my family was already established here.
Regrettably, they all fled the state when it went Covid batshit crazy and I don’t blame them a bit!
I’m not alone I am in touch with many of my peers and all have similar stories.
Thank you for your article.
We could use your help in reaching out to our local community. May I direct you please to our local (forming) 501C3 at Coalition4liberty.com
Yeah about that . . .
Timing is everything.
Those same employees would now be screaming that they can not afford a house in Texas.
All didn’t go to Texas. Some went to FLA, N.C., Ohio, Virginia and Idaho. In every single case my former employees who could barely afford a room in a house here in SoCal are thriving in their new locations with multiple houses, cheap energy, low crime rates, money in the bank, married with children and a “normal” life.
It has nothing to do with timing. Everything to do with proper management of a state run by people who actually care about quality of life. Even today I recorded a email from one in Texas, a picture of his wife and baby, in the background gas price is less than half what we are paying here. That is today! 06/28/25…That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Apples and oranges.
Not sure if you checked or not, but let's look at some numbers.
Normal life is subjective. Skipping that.
Married with children is also not related to them being here or there. Skipping it.
Low crime rates. Seeing that you listed states, all I can do is go by states. But wait . . . can we really do that? See, Florida, only 8% of the agencies report to the FBI, whereas in CA it is 49%. Why is it that Florida has the LOWEST of any state? What are they hiding? I can go anecdotal and compare South Florida to Santa Barbara if you want. In 36 years of South Florida, I had a couple of bikes stolen, a few violent encounters, and someone trying to get into my house in the middle of the night because they had been injured. In 23 years of Santa Barbara, I have had two small statues stolen from in front of my door. So without the reporting, what do you have? It really becomes subjective, and what the media portrays.
Cheap energy - that is somewhat subjective as well. Yes, the per kWh is cheaper in every other state, but the usage? In Florida, you are using AC 7x24. In Ohio and Idaho, you will have heating bills. I'd be curious what the cost of keeping warm is for those people during the winter.
Multiple houses - supply and demand. That ain't happening in FL or Texas or Virginia or NC right now. Maybe Idaho if you are far enough out. The housing issue is interesting because the average salary could not afford the house even if the land and labor were free. The components to build the house have increased a lot over the last 20 years.
And if your employees could barely afford a room in a house, uhh, maybe they left you because you didn't pay well enough?
People are mobile. They like to move around. In CA, they are less apt to do that if they have been in a place for a while due to Prop 13. I remember having a conversation with a friend in 2002 here in SB. This is just when pricing for housing was going way up. He pointed to a section in the Mesa that in 1999 was selling for 280k, that was now over 1mm. Amazing what happens when you adjust the biggest lever there is in a PITI payment. I remember buying a place in 98 and HAPPY that I was getting a 7.5% interest rate.
In regards to gas, that is such a red herring. The state can control one thing and one thing only, the amount that they tax it. There is about a 45 cent per gallon difference in taxes added by the state compared to Texas. Let me put an ASTERISK there because in CA gas also has a sales tax associated with it (2.25% for the state), and that will vary depending on where it sold because there can be district taxes added to it. Why is this a red herring? Because it is insignificant in the scope of things. If a person has a vehicle getting 30 mpg and drives 15k miles, that is 500 gallons of gas during the year. The difference that the STATE impacts, again, this is YOUR arguement, is about 50 cents, so that would be about $21 per month.
The other aspects of the delta in pricing is not STATE imposed. It is capitalism.
I'm sure you're probably right, you have obviously put a lot of thought and mental gymnastics into your explanation.
Just lost 2 more local business friends/clients one to Idaho (Coeur D'Alene) and one to Colorado (Montrose)...2000+sqft house on 1+ acres for under $500K, gas at $2.75/ga., business startup and taxes less than half what they are here, better public schools for the kiddos....etc.
Their companies are moving with them, about 100 employees....
People are still leaving California in droves for cheaper housing, cheaper costs of living, less crime, lower taxes, better startup business costs...weird, huh? I'll send them your explanation how it's "apples and oranges" and all in their heads!🙄😂
Eric, we can have a substantive conversation about this or trade sarcasms—that's your choice.
While your examples are anecdotal, they do reflect a real pattern I've observed throughout my life. I had a front-row seat to IBM's move from New York to Boca Raton in the early 1970s. The MBA consultants made compelling presentations about Florida's advantages: FAU was one exit away, no state income taxes, lower wages, cheaper housing, and land costs. IBM opened their facility, invented the PC there, and by the mid-1980s had already abandoned the operation.
Why? Because the promised benefits didn't materialize as expected.
Yes, they got lower wages, but they also discovered there was no talent pipeline. FAU wasn't producing the caliber of employees they needed, and the talent they wanted kept leaving Florida for higher-paying opportunities elsewhere. I've witnessed this pattern repeatedly—businesses that depend on skilled talent often struggle in these relocations, while companies that primarily need bodies (rather than specialized skills) can successfully chase lower labor costs, eventually moving overseas entirely.
The IBM experience was particularly telling. They sold their Armonk employees on the Florida dream—some bought the pitch, others saw it as a chance to be closer to retired parents. But within a few years, complaints started mounting about how terrible Florida was compared to their previous locations. Many moved back, with or without IBM.
Let's examine Idaho specifically. It's a state with 2 million people total. There's a reason the population remains so low—if it were truly superior, it would be populated like California. It fits a certain lifestyle and demographic, which is fine, but let's be realistic about the trade-offs.
Those 100 employees who relocated—congratulations if they're happy. But what happens if their employer fires them? Kootenai County's largest employers show limited options. Most people making these moves are following a specific job opportunity.
Here's the crucial question: did the employer maintain California wages or adjust to local market rates? Hint: most adjust downward. Idaho's average household income is under $75,000, while California's exceeds $95,000. The lower cost of living often comes with correspondingly lower wages.
The pattern is predictable: initial enthusiasm about lower costs and "better quality of life," followed by the reality of limited career opportunities, reduced earning potential, and often a desire to return to larger markets with more robust economies and career prospects.
“Eric, we can have a substantive conversation about this or trade sarcasms—that's your choice.”
David, I am older and have experienced much…I have found that when someone is peeing on my legs but tells me that it’s just raining; that the choice of sarcasm is prudent. 😊
You are not realizing the main difference between the two eras, that is the current bottom up pressure to move. It is about opportunity and quality of life.
Your comparisons to events from 50-60 years ago were top down decisions and today are ringing hollow. The wages paid are the same because the markets are global. The talent is initiating these moves for their own benefit. Not the other way around.
As I expressed in my opening post to this discussion, it is the talent requesting movement, the workforce, not the bean counters and CEO’s like myself
The moves in these cases are coming from the bottom up.
Another article that uses some other topic to push their agenda. And the irony is that the article is full of misinformation.
OMG . . . you mean RED states also tax military? California, Montana, Rhode Island, Utah and Vermont all fully tax military retirement income.
Offer nothing in return? What a line of BS. Sounds like the author wants to LEECH off the state. What a parasite. He wants all the benefits of living in the state without paying for it. Where is the HONOR in that?
I chuckle at this line, "High taxes, unaffordable housing, and the crushing cost of daily life, send a clear message to retiring service members: this state may have trained you, stationed you, even buried your friends — but it has no intention of keeping you."
Wait? Wut? Housing is housing. Where is it 'affordable?' People buy the payment. CA has one of the lowest property tax rates of any state in the US. Want to compare that to Florida? You know, the place with NO state income tax? A $1mm house in Florida will cost you about 28-30k per year in property taxes. In CA, that is 11k. If you think that your military income is going to generate 17k in state taxes, what the heck did you do to earn that? By the way, that would be about 225k in income as a single to pay that tax.
Crushing costs of daily life? What the heck does that mean and how does the state control that?
Sorry, your whole article sounds like a cheap person whining for benefits for free, at the cost of others. Isn't that what Republicans call socialism?
I knew it would not take long to get to immigrants. "Meanwhile, the state has poured billions into programs like Medi-Cal for undocumented immigrants"
What a @!#$% lie. https://calbudgetcenter.org/news/new-study-undocumented-immigrants-contribute-8-5-billion-in-california-taxes-a-year/
So let me understand your point. You want someone to subsidize your lifestyle because you worked, yet the immigrants who work can not get the same? This is why this article comes across as a whining, give me something for free waste of pixels.
In Calif one million gets you a small condo, for your $11,000 a year property taxes. Failed comparisons are lying too, DB. What sector of Calif are you really running protection for I your comments?
And you fail math, geography, and perspective.
Percentages are percentages. Florida's property tax rate is about 2.5-3%. CA's is static because of Prop 13. Florida and those other no income tax states have appraisers, and your property's value fluctuates each year.
Florida's homeowners' insurance is significantly higher than that in CA. As I have to write the check each year for my inlaws, a house that is WORTH 250k has homeowners', through the state, Citizens United at $6,820 per year. This is not on the water, this is ~20 miles from the ocean.
Florida's car insurance is also drastically higher than CA's. Yet, isn't that the 'crippling daily costs?'
Now let's talk geography. Can you get a $1mm condo in Beverly Hills? Nope. Can you get a $1mm condo in Key Biscayne? Barely. But wait . . . you have HOA fees that will be so much more in Florida than in CA. Oh wait, now you want to talk about buying a house. Ok. Can you find a $1mm in Loxahatchee Florida? RARE to find something that expensive. https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/4782-Kirker-Rd_Loxahatchee_FL_33470_M93145-90448 But again, you have the same issue in Burney, CA https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/22027-Widgeon-Ct_Burney_CA_96013_M94706-92577
When you say CA, you must mean all of CA. You are trying to say Santa Barbara. There are very expensive places to live in every state. Land is not being made anymore. In YOUR lifetime, the US population has almost grown by 300%. When you have desirable places for people to live, then you have demand higher than supply.
You and others, IMO, are foolish. If you want to argue qualitatively, I will step away. That is subjective, and there is no right or wrong, just how you feel. If you want to argue quantitatively, you will lose. The argument that this OP is making is cherry picking. It does not look at the totality. The totality is both sides of the equation: Income and Expense. Now, I am not going to bring up fixed income because the OP mentioned that military retirees are going into second jobs. But when you look at the income of a CA resident compared to a Florida or Texas resident, the CA income is 30% higher. When you look at the expense side, well, CA food is probably $200 per year higher per person. Gas, that is such a variable because of distance and mpg. But to make it easier, it is probably ~$450 per year higher in CA. Your car insurance, homeowners' insurance is probably ~$3000 per year higher in those other states.
LOL. You people learned nothing from your Biden/Harris disasters. But thanks for your laundry list of attacks and insults. We will be ready for you in 2026. Keep it up. We appreciate the heavy detail in your argument.
Democrats are dead for at least another generation. You have nothing to offer, but do have a massive amount of a past grift to protect. So attack away. You 100% missed the national mood in 2024, doubling down with more of the same proves you are a bankrupt party. Which is too bad, because several of us were former Democrats, now lost to the party forever. Ask us why.
I do not care what party you are affiliated with. That is up to you. I do not care who you vote for. That is up to you.
I can't fix the inability to comprehend.
I can't fix the inability to be objective.
I can't fix the inability to not think that other US citizens are your enemy.
For the 'party' that screams personal responsibility, there seems to be a lot of deflection from their followers of their own personal responsibility for their actions.
Hi David. You are actually failing in this math. Veterans with a disability rating in FL get a huge break in property taxes. There’s no math that you can do that will show CA is a better state financially than FL for retired Vets. I don’t know any retired Vets that don’t get rated at least 10% disability to receive those benefits. There are many sites that rate states for retired Vets and CA is at the bottom.
Just go to chat gpt and type “where does CA rank in best states for retired Vets to live.”
Also, no one is leeching off the state. It would the exact opposite. These veterans will be working a post military job, just like everyone else here, and paying state income taxes on it. Plus their property taxes, and all the other taxes that come with living in CA, which includes spending their military retirement in the state economy. Instead of incentivizing a person who has been moved all over earth every 2-3 years for decades to stay here and contribute to the state - you’d rather they leave and contribute to a different state?
If you want to do this objectively, we can. If you are going to do this without any depth, let's just move on.
If you want to break things down quantatively, let's do it.
I will go point by point, proving that you are inaccurate.
1. Property tax deduction in Florida. This is a fixed dollar amount that lowers the appraised value of your residence. This value is $5,000. As this is based on appraised value, it has more value on a cheaper house. Florida is odd in how they do property taxes. They are a combination of county and state settings. The county appraises the property yearly. That methodology is set by the county. As I have/do own multiple properties in multiple counties in Florida, they are different! Some counties the appraised value is close to what the value is for selling, others it can be 3/4 of the value if you sold it. However, when you buy a property, it reassess. Let me cheat and just use a tax collector's calculator. In Pasco County, if you just purchased a 500k house and LIVE there, your property taxes are estimated to be 7984.67 Now, if you apply the 5k veteran discount, they drop to 7899.95. Wow, that is a HUGE savings. /end sarcasm. Now, there is an edge case to get them to make you look better, you have to be combat related disabled vet and over 65. But, then again, you are telling me that these are people that are just retiring from the military and starting other jobs.
2. Better financially. Hmm. Tampa is the 2nd largest MSA in Florida. It has 3.4mm people in it. The 2nd largest MSA in CA is Riverside area with 4.7mm. The closest to Tampa would be San Diego-Chula Vista at 3.4mm. Since 2000, the property values in Tampa have increased by 5.1% annually. San Diego and Riverside MSA has increased by ~6.3% per year. In 2000, the average sales price in Tampa was 135k, San Diego was 250k, Riverside was 150k.
Now, the beauty of math. If you bought in 2000, so 25 years later, what is it worth today? If you are telling me that people are retiring from the military at 40, then working, maybe they retire at 65 and downsize.
In Tampa, you would have a house that is worth 468k. In San Diego, your house would be worth 1.15mm, in Riverside, it would be worth 690k.
Had you bought in San Diego, you would have an extra 683k compared to Tampa, and in Riverside, an extra 222k compared to Tampa.
That is just your house, you know, an ASSET.
Let's look at income. I am trying to stay with my 25 years :), but am stuck with 2024 data, so this is slightly projected. I am also using a single person.
2000: Tampa - 32,930, San Diego 35,414, Riverside 26,823
2025: Tampa - 87,743, San Diego 91,121, Riverside 55,025
Riverside MSA is such an odd place because all the warehouses drag that wage down big time! I wish I could find a way to exclude that data.
But you will now say, what about state income tax. Can I counter with what about toll roads? You will counter, what about gas? I will counter with, that is insignificant.
Let's have some more fun with math. How about using property taxes + state income tax in each MSA over 25 years?
During those 25 years in San Diego, that person paid 52,669 in state income tax. The Riverside person, again, bad usage because of the warehouses/farming paid 24,223. In Florida it was zero.
Here, let me cut/paste from ChatGPT :)
Complete 25-Year Financial Picture:
Tampa:
Home appreciation gain: +$333,168
State income tax: $0
Property taxes: -$114,322
Net Position: +$218,846
San Diego:
Home appreciation gain: +$901,520
State income tax: -$52,669
Property taxes: -$100,095
Net Position: +$748,756
Riverside:
Home appreciation gain: +$540,912
State income tax: -$24,223
Property taxes: -$60,057
Net Position: +$456,632
Final Comparison:
San Diego advantage over Tampa: +$529,910
Riverside advantage over Tampa: +$237,786
Key Insight: Even after accounting for both California state income taxes AND property taxes, both California markets significantly outperformed Tampa. Proposition 13's protection against rising property taxes was crucial - without it, California residents would have paid $78,778-$47,267 more in property taxes, significantly eroding their real estate wealth gains.
The combination of superior real estate appreciation and Proposition 13's tax protection created substantial long-term wealth advantages for California homeowners, despite paying state income taxes.
Do you really want to argue over ~$500 per year in extra gas costs? Do you want me to do this same with car insurance, homeowners insurance? Then, let's talk about the bad times that may occur during those 25 years. CA UI covers 26 weeks at $450 a week, Florida covers 12 weeks with a $275 a week max.
Yeah . . . math.
If you want to argue that you will FEEL better not living in CA, that is fine. That is subjective. I can disagree and we are both right. But numbers, numbers do not lie. If the person talks to someone who is looking out for them financially, showing income, expenses, appreciation, etc. That person will point them to CA all the time. Sure, there may be a HIGHER entry cost to get into the CA space, but the return will be higher.
Do you want me to continue proving that the OP is asking to leech from the state?
David, honestly this is a bunch of irrelevance. We aren't talking about going back in the past and buying a home for its overinflated value here, that's now 14.3X the median salary, the highest of any state, not good for families trying to buy a home. An E-8 getting out of the military is not looking for real estate investment, they need a home for a family of four, and a job today in 2025.
E-8 Pension after 20 years: $50k
E-8 Post Military Salary: 125k (Working for Govt or Defense Contractor)
Spouse Salary as Nurse: $75k
Family Total Income post military (the first time making a good living in over 20 years): $250k
Option 1: House in Carpinteria (3 Bedrooms needed for family of 4) - to work at Naval Base Ventura County: Cheapest on the market today is $1.67M for 1240 sqft.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1389-Vallecito-Pl-Carpinteria-CA-93013/15874478_zpid/
They need to get this down to $919k to qualify for a VA loan. So $700k down payment, which they assuredly haven't saved during a military career. But let's say they did:
Down payment: $700k
Mortgage Payment: $6171/month
Property Taxes: $17868
State Income taxes: $15,277
Income left after mortgage and income/property taxes: $90K (plus the expense of their entire life savings in down payment if they had it - which I get is equity now, still is money they do not have for life expenses now, which they do in option 2)
Option 2: House in Tampa (Range for similar home is 300K -550k. Let's call it $450k for 1598 sqft.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6509-W-Longboat-Blvd-Tampa-FL-33615/44869311_zpid/
Down Payment: $0
Mortgage Payment: $3837
Property Taxes: $6300 $0 if 100% disabled
State Income taxes: $0 (this is half the year's mortgage payments)
Income left after mortgage and income/property taxes: $158K
All other taxes in CA are more expensive than 49 other states, the cost of living depending is top 3, so no point in even writing a wall of text on that versus FL.
I'm not sure what year you are living in, but it definitely isn't 2025 for a family of four. Thank you for the conversation. I'm not going to continue to argue with you over the affordability of living and housing in CA, every human in the U.S. and thousands of sites will tell you differently.
Here you can see CA has an economic rank of 51st (includes D.C.) for retiring military:
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-states-for-military-retirees/3915
Bob,
The wall of text was NOT irrelevant. It was staying on the subject. You are moving the topic now.
Let me just correct ONE thing quickly.
"Mortgage Payment: $3837
Property Taxes: $1300 ($6300 - $5000 10% disabled)"
NO! That is not how it works in Florida at all. It is NOT the property taxes minus 5,000. It is the APPRAISED VALUE that the assessor uses as the basis minus 5,000. CA is such an awesome state in understanding how simple property taxes can be. The purchase price is the basis. It is 1.1% year one and can go up 1.01% per year, based on the purchase price + any additional IMPROVEMENTS to the property. There are NO appraisers. In Florida, each county has their own appraiser. It is a governmental position. The appraiser values the land and the building on it. It is impacted by MARKET conditions as well as IMPROVEMENTS on the building. That is the baseline value, then they start by reducing that value with deductions. Those deducations are homestead exemptions (have to live in it and be a state resident), disabled, veteran, etc. Those deductions are generally dollar amounts, not percentage amounts. Once you get a new value, then the appraiser applies the county multiplier on it, then the city multiplier on it, then various other bond issues on it. That is how the property tax is determined. Here is a calculator, for one place that I own property in! https://bcpa.net/TaxCalc.asp is for Broward County, This PDF explains those deductions and it is from Pasco County - https://pascopa.com/documents/pdfs/Understanding_Homestead_Exemption_and_Other_Benefits_Brochure_2024.pdf This is the house that YOU listed in tampa - https://45.32.81.52:8585 It ESTIMATES that the taxes, with homestead are going to be 5900-7000 a year if it sells for 450k.
In the most simplistic way of understanding this, citizens demand services from the government. These services cost money. The government needs a source of income for those services. How they get it is what we are arguing about. If it was a 450k house in Carp, the property taxes would be ~4500 a year. Now, would you complain that FL is 7k? That is the issue regarding property taxes. So, CA has a progressive income tax. Which, in the scheme of things is SMARTER. Florida started to realize that. Why is CA's smarter? It keeps property taxes LOW, for a LONG TIME. When you retire, then what? Your income goes to fixed and you are not looking at the huge variable of property taxes. Florida is trying to solve this with 65+ property taxes, as well as property tax portability.
Now to the rest of your response. We are in complete agreement that housing costs today are more expensive as a percent of income than they were 20-40-60 years ago. This is not exclusive to military. It is for ALL citizens in the US. I bought my first house in Florida 35 years ago. I paid it off within 5 years. I just looked it up. Four years ago it sold for about 6.5 times more than I paid for it. It took 31 years to go 6.5x. Did income go up 6.5x since then? NO. That is a huge issue IMO. The next huge ISSUE is simple math. Let's make the land free. The cost to build that house is STILL beyond the ability for the average worker to own. If you look at the national builders, a good proxy because they churn out clones of buildings as fast as possible, 65% of the sale price is their materials and labor. So go and find that new home in Santa Maria that is 600k and you will see that the cost to build, without the land is nearly 400k. This is an issue.
The next issue is the resale of houses. Is the house worth at least replacement cost? That is what is going on in Florida right now. I have four deals on my desk to look at. If I can buy the house for less than replacement cost, it is really a land deal or a rental deal. Considering that there are so many places for sale, it is a rental deal.
I sincerely understand the angst and what is being said by others who have different agendas. I know both of these markets well. As a parent, I realize that my child will not have the capacity to earn enough to buy a place in Santa Barbara. That is disheartening. However, that is capitalism and that is economics. No one is entitled to live where they desire. If that were the case, then the country would have even more people on the water :)
I can tell you when I moved here I was excited. Sure, my house cost 3x from what I left. However, my property taxes were higher in dollars, but as a percentage, it was almost 1/3rd using the value of the house (from 3.2% to 1.1%) My homeowners was 20% the cost of what it was in Florida. I did not have to have flood insurance like I did in Florida. My car insurance was almost 50% cheaper. My food costs went up such a tiny amount. Sure, I paid more in gas, but in a weird way, I drove less miles per year. Look that up, it is interesting, CA drivers drive about 85% of the miles of a Floridian per year. So the extra gas cost was not relevant, because I saved on the total gas expense.
In regards to the wallethub article, please, scroll down and read their system. This does NOT apply to what the OP is talking about. The economic side does not mention the INCOME increase. This whole thing is assuming the person stays retired, thus a fixed income. If a person is on a fixed income, then HELL YEAH, GET OUT OF CA. Chase where your expenses are minimized. If you are continuing working after getting out of the military, CA will wind up better for you when you are ready to retire. Getting over the hurdle in how to buy a place, well, that is an issue for ALL people, regardless of military or not. I would say that the military people have a better shot at it though because their pension supplements their income! Most people will not have that.
Do you want to get into the qualitative aspect? Look at that place in Florida? 10/10 for flooding, etc. Schools that are 2/10? Compare that to Carp. :)
And this is where Wallethub and SmartAsset mislead people. I am taking YOUR scenario and slightly cheating for simpler math :) Look at the interest on the house.
California Scenario
Income: $250,000
Mortgage: $1,000,000 at 6% interest-only
Annual mortgage interest: $60,000
Property taxes: $15,000
Federal tax: $29,706
California state tax: $8,864
Total tax bill: $38,570
Florida Scenario
Income: $250,000
Mortgage: $450,000 at 6% interest-only
Annual mortgage interest: $27,000
Property taxes: $6,500
Federal tax: $38,045
Florida state tax: $0
Total tax bill: $38,045
Key Findings
Tax Impact: Moving to Florida saves you only $525 annually in taxes. This small savings occurs because while you eliminate California's state income tax ($8,864), your federal tax increases by $8,339 due to lower itemized deductions in Florida.
Total Annual Savings: $42,025
Tax savings: $525
Mortgage interest savings: $33,000
Property tax savings: $8,500
Important Notes
SALT Cap Impact: The federal $10,000 SALT deduction cap significantly limits your California tax advantage since your property taxes exceed this amount.
Mortgage Interest: The largest savings comes from reducing your mortgage debt by $550,000, which saves $33,000 annually in interest payments.
Net Result: Despite California's higher state taxes, the federal tax system's limitations mean the tax difference is minimal. The real financial benefit comes from the reduced mortgage debt and lower property taxes in Florida.
This is my whole point. The tax situation because CA has a state income tax is NOT an issue. For $525 per year would you rather live in that flood zone, bad schools or live in CA? :)
The issue is getting into the house in the first place. It MAY be easier in CA due to the fact that you will have a higher INCOME than in FL. But you will have more money going to pay down an asset. Remember, my whole assumption is that this is a person getting out at 40 years old, collecting that pension, then going to WORK for the next 25 years. The property you buy in CA will appreciate FASTER than the property you buy in Florida. Then, when you do retire for good, you will have MORE money in retirement.
Here is one other thing to think about to stress that point. I am looking at a deal right now, about 20 minutes north of where you showed that place in Tampa. It was built in 1982. I do not know the original price. In 2005, it sold for $150k. I am in negotiation to buy it, need some more t's and c's, but the price has been agreed to, at 195k. Yes, the owner is losing 3 points to the broker, so their net appreciation in 20 years was 39k. Where does that happen in CA? :)
A few things.
- acknowledge the correction on the assessment.
- the cost of housing here is NOT because it’s paradise. We all went to the UCSB economic summit a few weeks ago and they clearly showed the cost of housing/living here is primarily driven by state and county over-regulation.
- 14.3x income for home cost means you either are wealthy, have existing equity from decades ago, or have inheritance, otherwise you cannot start equity/life here in much of SB county. There are no 500k houses here for a family, doesn’t exist. My house in MD for my last DC job, closed at 492k, 5000sqft, 0.5 acre yard. That doesn’t exist here. CA has an average home cost of 880k compared to the US’s 400k. And if you remove the inland counties that average cost skyrockets.
As a military retiree with my post military career, it does not matter where I live. I’ll make the same amount in any state, and we have offices in Orlando and Austin. The benefit a military person has over a person stuck here is that they get a fully paid final move to anywhere - if you could choose anywhere to start over with a middle class income and no equity, you really can’t make a case to stay here for million dollar plus 1200 sqft homes, when there are 300k better homes in states that don’t tax you, with similar jobs.
I get this is a problem for anyone. But retired military have an easy button to leave. 38 Other states fully exempt military retirement and offer property tax benefits to entice qualified workers to stay/come. If CA could retain 2% more of these people, it would more than cover the tax loss with taxing their post military careers.
The cost of housing/living is a major problem for the federal government recruiting young talent. I ran a large organization here in the DoD. We simply couldn’t hire young graduates, like good cyber engineers that start at 70k here in the federal government, when they can go to FL, TX, or TN. Every tech company has this same issue here in coastal CA, and they can pay more than the govt can to start. That’s why the tech companies are leaving. Again, it’s over-regulation, not the weather driving costs…
The over regulation in labor laws also incentivizes companies to leave. Ask any company that has offices in multiple states, they will quickly tell you CA is their least desired state to hire anyone from in those offices.
If you have money to flip houses like you are doing in the real estate market, then great. But for an average middle/working class person just trying to buy a family home or a college grad getting a starter home to build equity, CA is broken.
Bob,
Thank you for this thoughtful conversation and for your understanding of how property taxes work in Florida.
While we have some disagreements, I appreciate our major areas of agreement.
I'm intentionally setting aside the military-specific aspects here because this housing affordability crisis affects everyone, not just service members.
You're right that 14.3x is high, but this isn't new—it's capitalism at work. While regulations play a role, they haven't exclusively caused this problem. What you're experiencing has been happening for generations and will continue. Growing up in South Florida, my family couldn't afford Coconut Grove, Key Biscayne, or oceanfront properties either—those areas were probably 14.3x income ratios too. They cost more because demand exceeded supply, just like we see everywhere now.
Land is the one resource you can't make more of (though South Florida did create some by filling swampland west of I-75 until environmental concerns stopped it in 1972). Areas like Montecito and Beverly Hills have likely maintained similar price-to-income ratios for over a century.
Since 1940, the U.S. population has nearly tripled, and over 60% of Americans live within 60 miles of a coast. This has dramatically impacted costs. Regulations do affect density—like Santa Barbara's building height restrictions and the current fight over the 80-foot building behind the mission. Without any regulations, developers would build without considering infrastructure impacts. So yes, regulations matter, but are they solely responsible for 14.3x ratios?
I'm still kicking myself over advice I got in 2003. A prominent local realtor told me people were buying rental properties that weren't cash-flow positive—losing about 10% the first year and breaking even around year eight. She said, "People are buying now to lock in prices so their kids can have somewhere to live later. They're willing to lose $200k over ten years because they think appreciation will cover it, and giving their children housing security is worth more than the financial loss." My younger, less experienced self didn't think hard enough about it. She was absolutely right.
The Panda Express salary postings at Five Points perfectly illustrate our broader issue. Someone can start putting food on plates and become a store manager earning $80-90k within three years. Compare that to teachers who need a bachelor's degree plus 600 hours of certification training, only to earn less than Panda managers while dealing with political scrutiny, difficult parents, and active shooter drills. Police officers require training and earn $102k, but for an extra $12-22k over Panda management, they face people trying to kill them instead of angry customers throwing orange chicken. An Army E-1 makes $25k annually (plus room and board) while dealing with actual bullets instead of food.
This is capitalism in action—employers pay market rates to get jobs done. There's competition between private and public sectors for workers.
Regarding "over-regulation in labor laws"—if that's code for "business friendly," you've hit one of my biggest pet peeves. Having taken companies public and managed over 2,000 employees, I know what "business friendly" often means: doing whatever you want to employees with zero consequences. That's exactly why labor laws exist.
In Florida, I could demand 90-hour weeks with no overtime from salaried employees. Sure, they could quit, but those needing paychecks would comply—I had the gold, I made the rules. California is different. There's a minimum wage for tech workers (around $120k this year). Employers aren't forced to pay it, but if they do, they can require 60-hour weeks and on-call duties. Pay less, and it's standard hours with no overtime or on-call expectations. I even learned that offices with certain numbers of these employees must have on-site showers—apparently because companies were having people pull all-nighters and... well, hygiene became an issue for everyone else.
Managing over 2,000 employees in California wasn't problematic. I didn't find regulations burdensome unless you wanted to exploit workers.
For a supposedly "terrible" state, California still has the largest workforce and economy in the U.S. Those who leave are typically ones who dislike rules protecting consumers and employees, often relocating to places like Texas, which has shown it prioritizes business interests over citizens, environment, or worker welfare.
David, thank you for the discussion and the details between the states. I'll still stick with over regulation is the primary problem though. It was enlightening hearing from our UCSB and UCLA professors on it a few weeks ago, they had many examples and the numbers. It's almost as if SB County is competing against the state in who can add more regulations to make everything cost more or be impossible. The high speed rail that didn't lay a foot of track is a perfect example. Everything attempted here is bogged down in CEQA, lawsuits, and regulations. Just about every tributary in this county is protected for steelhead trout, even ones that haven't had water in them for 60 years...
I'll also hold that workforce and economy isn't a great indicator in a vacuum. China is #2 on that...not a great country for its people with quality of life, authoritarian, state run everything, no liberty, labor exploitation...
Here are some other CA metrics to go with that #1 state GDP:
- Poverty (SPM): worst in US
- Outmigration of citizens: #1 in US
- Homeownership: 49th in US
- Homelessness: #1 in US, while spending $24B of our taxes on it as an industry for NGOs, and it's rising
- Per capita debt: #1 in US
- Education: 37th, with 72% of highschoolers not meeting state standards
- Infrastructure: ASCE C- overall grade, D+ roads, C water, C- transit, $100B in school maintenance backlog
This isn't because of Capitalism. This is all government mismanagement and corruption. We pay the highest overall taxes here, we should be top 3 in these things. It's way past time to remove many of the people in office. That's not just a slight at the other side for me. I know many competent Democrats/No Party Preference that have tried to get civically active and the people in control block everyone from getting a voice, they have the seat already and the corrupt puppet. That's why many positions go uncontested. If people in the middle don't stop clicking the incumbent that has a D next to their name, nothing will change.
Bob-thank you for this excellent article. I had no idea. My brother is a vet, and was one of the lucky ones (?) who retired long ago and got to stay.